CMP bayonet: New or Used?

[Kirk]

A visit to the South Store today produced this M5A1 bayonet. The scabbard is marked "USM8A1" & "PWH". The bayonet is marked "U.S.M5A1" and "MIL PAR COL".

The blade & handle appear perfect; the scabbard has a few wear marks but is intact. So, are they used or new? Did I get a "better than advertised" used on or did I foolishly spend $15 more than needed?
50085009501050115012

http://www.thecmp.org/accessories.htm

[Bob - The Beagle Master]

According to the CMP website the new ones are "GARAND BAYONET M5A1 w/M8A1 SCABBARD - New -unissued - excellent condition (bayonet and scabbard). Price $60 each plus S&H." The one pictured shows no wear around the snap and has a leather thong. I guess the questions is, are you happy with your bayonet? If you're happy then you spent the right amount.

[Kirk]

Very satisfied - it's a Used bayonet.

[Mike Haas]

Kirk - Does your bayonet have a DAS stamp??

http://www.thecmp.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20146

[Bob - The Beagle Master]

Using a penlight and a magnifying glass, and almost standing on my head, I did finally find a very faint DA on mine and I've had it for 25 years or more. On Mike's link it does say that towards the end of manufacture they MAY have quit using the stamp so it all seems to be a moot point.

[Kirk]

No DAS stamp I can see, even with a magnifying glass. I don't believe, as others have said, that mine was refinished over pitting. I can't see any pitting nor do I see any grinding or wire wheel marks; all surfaces are smooth & pristine.

[Bayonetman]

I have viewed the thread here and on the CMP forum that the link shows on these bayonets. I emailed Orest some time back about these, and he freely admitted that he, and probably no one else there, knew much about bayonets. They have volunteers sorting these into new and used, and I don't think they know too much either. I was invited to come to Anniston and spend some time helping out, and if it were not for my financial resources being quite limited, I probably would have done so. From what I have seen in the posted photos, I am somewhat surprised to see that the bayonets do not appear to be US issue. The MILPAR COL bayonets are somewhat suspect simply because many (probably thousands) of them were commercially sold and did not meet military specifications. These came from Greece (no question) so the questions is: 1. Were these sold or given to Greece by the US military? 2. Were at least some purchased by Greece from US commercial sources? 3. If they were supplied by the US military, were they from US stocks, or purchased on Military Aid contracts and not intended for US issue?

My listing of some bayonets and scabbards supplied by the US to various foreign countries (http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_26.htm) shows that 17, 538 M5A1 bayonets were supplied to Greece in 1963 and there may have been other shipments that I have not located. These are listed as being source K, which indicates they were to be furnished from existing stocks.

I would really like to be able to look at these bayonets. Both in the photos I have seen have the wrong runout (backcut). The scabbard does appear to be a standard US issue item.

[milsurpman]

Added info, Orest posted the markings on the packing material the new bayonets and scabbards came in.

Quote:
The box of bayonets has the following information on the label:
30 each
C/C 12/76
DAAA09-76-C-6658
CU. .77 WT. 25
The box is stenciled 1005-00-336-8568
I do know DAAA09 was the designation for the US Army Armamments Command back then. There were 30 bayonets in the carton. The "76" is the year of the contract.

The scabbards came two to a MIL-B-117 pack and the bag is labeled:
1095-508-0339
Scabbard, Bayonet Knife, M8A1
2 Ea.
DAAF01-69-F-8756
A/ 10//69
:quote end
These bayonets are very late date. very interesting

[JimF4m1s]

Quick check, the grind on the blade should be verticle not at an angle towards the handle.

[Kirk]

Below are pictures of the guard where the DSA stamp is supposed to be and the grind marks on the blade. The grind marks are straight down. I can post pics of other features if you wish.

5036503850395037

[Mike Haas]

I had ordered two (2) of the new M5-A1 bayonets on 7/6/10. Then the pictures starting showing up here & on the CMP thread. With that info in hand I re-visited 'Bayo-Points' and concluded these were unlikely to be USGI..No DAS..I further concluded that they were likely US Made for 'Foriegn Use' - Bayonetmans post above re-affirms my research.

I cancelled my order yesterday afternoon and I'm glad I did. I don't mind supporting CMP's mission but these M5-A1 bayonets are premium priced for IMO non-USGI Bayonets. I'll watch the offerings CMP posts for earlier model bayo's when they come up.

Thanks Bayonetman for your info and as things have shaken out maybe CMP should have found a way to "pay for your expenses" while you "volunteered" your expertise.

[Bob - The Beagle Master]

For Orest to pay bayonetman's expenses since he seems to possess the expertise on bayonets. I'm like most people, I have guns and I like to have accountrements like bayonets to go along with them, but I'm sure not an expert. I've always gone on the theory that if I thought something was a good deal, then it's a good deal. I've got bayonets and I've got a couple of books on bayonets but that's the extent of my knowledge. I really does seem that the CMP bayonets are pricey but that's just my opinion.

[musketjon]

That's precisely why I bought mine on Evilbay. It's a J&D Tool Co M5-1 WITH the DAS AND it was cheaper than the CMP. The CMP isn't always your best bet.
Jon

[Bob - The Beagle Master]

Here's one you can bid on. New in wrap and has the DAS on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Korean-War-Era-M-5-A1-Imperial-Bayonet-/260628194770?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3caea6a5d2

And yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/USM5M1-Garand-Bayonet-Korean-Era-/300443360481?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f3d1dce1

Or there's this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bayonet-M1-Garand-M5A1-Imperial-Korea-Vietnam-unused-/200493106900?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae5206d4

One last one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bayonet-M1-Garand-M5A1-MILPAR-COL-Korea-Vietnam-unused-/200493106975?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae52071f

As you can see CMP ain't the only game in town!

[JBinIll]

Never been much into bayonets this new.After reading all the posts about these I think I'll get a copy of bayonetman's book.I see more people making comments as to pricing for what they are than anything else.Over the last almost 60 years I have determined one unalterable fact of life,there is ALWAYS somebody selling it cheaper than the place I bought it at. :hello:

[Mike Haas]

It may well be that it's againist the CMP Charter to "Pay".."Volunteers" (Oxysmoran). regardless of expertise. I truely don't know how they can get around that issue except the info is free via the internet. Just takes a little research.

I'm not gonna 2nd guess 'Orest' but as I've said, I ain't buying the current M5-A1 Bayonets eiither.

[Kirk]

What about this twofer. http://cgi.ebay.com/SALE-1-SPRINGFIELD-16-1-GARAND-10-BAYONETS-/310225846783?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483ae6c1ff#ht_500wt_928



Here's one you can bid on. New in wrap and has the DAS on it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Korean-War-Era-M-5-A1-Imperial-Bayonet-/260628194770?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3caea6a5d2

And yet another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/USM5M1-Garand-Bayonet-Korean-Era-/300443360481?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f3d1dce1

Or there's this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bayonet-M1-Garand-M5A1-Imperial-Korea-Vietnam-unused-/200493106900?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae5206d4

One last one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bayonet-M1-Garand-M5A1-MILPAR-COL-Korea-Vietnam-unused-/200493106975?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eae52071f

As you can see CMP ain't the only game in town!

[Bayonetman]

I certainly do not want to cause any problems for the CMP as it is a great program which I fully support. As I said, Orest freely offered to allow me to come to Anniston and sort the bayonets as well as continue my own research. I did not in any way expect payment, and my inability to take him up on this was a combination of health issues, getting time off work, and financial issues. Orest correctly stated where these bayonets came from, and was good enough to post the information from the packing cases, so there is certainly no attempt to cover up any information. He cannot be expected to know all of the little ins and outs that make a bayonet collector interested, and even after 50 years of dealing with these, I still do not have all of the answers.

I am dismayed to read the long thread on the CMP forum about these bayonets, and see the comments of so many people who seem to feel they have been lied to or otherwise defrauded. I guess I should join that forum and comment there also, but I don't want to add fuel to the fire.

From the box markings, the bayonets in question were supplied to Greece under one of the War Aid programs, and were ordered for that purpose in 1976 apparently from MilPar Col. Yes, this was well past the time that the US needed them for issue to US troops. The same thing happened with the M4 bayonets ordered from Connetta/BrenDan in the late 1960s. When a requirement for items was sent, if stock was not available contracts were issued to fill the order, and that is what apparently happened here. So these M5A1 bayonets were purchased on contract from the US military, but not for US military use.

As there are many thousands of bayonets, there may well be other contracts or regular US issue items yet to be placed on sale. I will look forward to seeing what else may turn up down the road.

As a note, the scabbards apparently were taken from US stock and appear to be standard M8A1 as manufactured on contract in 1969 by Philadelphia Working Home for the Blind.

[roadawg]

Bayonetman,
Thanks for this great infomation! My guess is if it had been included with the CMP sales info there wouldn't have been such an uproar. I think if an item is described as "USGI" everyone expects it to have the USGI markings all over it and when these showed up without the DoD stampings that lit the fuse for all the comments on the internet about these bayonets! I suppose IF they DID have the DoD stamps on them the prices would be higher? I appreciate the clarification that you have provided, it's unfortunate the CMP didn't include it with their sales descriptions it would have saved a lot of grief, me thinks. Thanks, Bob B.

[173rd]

Anyone familiar with the M5A1 and M4 bayonets and M8 bayonet scabbards being sold by CDNNinvestments? A friend of mine bought one M5A1 and one M4 along with two M8 scabbards. The M5A1 arrived in a long plastice ziplock bag with a slip of paper enclosed stating "repacked 7/86. The maker was marked AKI I believe. The M4 bayonet was similarly packaged but with no "repack date". Both M8 scabbards came packaged similarly with a slip of paper enclosed stating the manufacturer to be Atlantic Textile Company with a date of 6/77. Are these USGI in origin or are they "genuine" reproductions? I don't know squat about bayonets - I also need a copy of Bayonetman's book. Opinions? Thanks.

[Bayonetman]

Anyone familiar with the M5A1 and M4 bayonets and M8 bayonet scabbards being sold by CDNNinvestments? A friend of mine bought one M5A1 and one M4 along with two M8 scabbards. The M5A1 arrived in a long plastice ziplock bag with a slip of paper enclosed stating "repacked 7/86. The maker was marked AKI I believe. The M4 bayonet was similarly packaged but with no "repack date". Both M8 scabbards came packaged similarly with a slip of paper enclosed stating the manufacturer to be Atlantic Textile Company with a date of 6/77. Are these USGI in origin or are they "genuine" reproductions? I don't know squat about bayonets - I also need a copy of Bayonetman's book. Opinions? Thanks.

AKI has not been identified to my satisfaction, but is not a US military manufacturer. It may be that the maker was trying to play on the KI (Kinfolks Incorporated) name, but the maker is almost certain to be in SE Asia, quite possibly in Korea. One of the importers told me that he understood that it stood for American Korean Industries, but I have no firm proof of that. There is a AKI (Alliance Knife Inc) that makes commercial blades but they assured me that they had never made any sort of bayonet. But whoever AKI may be, the bayonets are apparently made outside of the US for commercial sale. I have seen the M4 and M5A1 bayonets so marked, and had a collector tell me that he had an M6 marked that way.

Atlantic Textiles is a name used by a commercial maker, also unidentified so far. These were common a few years ago and probably still are. Others were Western Plastics and Keller Manufacturing. I combined photos of the slips found in the packages of these three, note that all show the same information, contract number, etc. Just another way to make someone think they are getting real US military items.

http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/images/18-13.JPG

[173rd]

Bayonetman, thank you for the most informative reply on the bayonets and scabbards. Don