without scopes?

[Fred]

did all early sniper rifles need scopes or were there any enfields before scopes were issued with certain rifles that were used for sniping early in the Great War that only had special target or peep sights? I've heard that was the case, but I hear a lot of things that aren't true.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

There were some special "sniper" open sights made for the Enfield, but it is doubtful they were utilized to any great extent. The Marines used the A5 scoped rifles, and some spectacular shots were made. Roland Fisher of the 6th Regiment killed six Huns at 1440 yards at Le Mare Farm, and was decorated for his effort. There were a couple of hundred A5 scoped rifles in use by the Marines. The Army used the M1913 scoped 03, which was in constant short supply, and probably used every M1908 scoped rifle available, although I know of no specific examples. The M1913 rifles were more accurate than most give them credit. I recently took a Warner Sawsey scoped 03 to Stoney Point, and after being sighted in at 100 yards, and using the scope adjustments for yardage only, we fired over 100 rounds in succession at steel sillouettes at ranges from 300 yards to 500 yards, and the vast majority were hits. After the rifle was so hot one couldn't touch the barrel without getting burned, I hit the 300 yard target 2 out of 5 shots, with the last shot taken at one of the 500 yard targets.

No Man's land was generally measured in hundreds of yards, and the difficulty of hitting a head at those ranges with only a few seconds to aim were probably nil. The Marines were very adept at hitting targets at extended ranges given the right circumstances. In one battle, the Marines slaughtered a German battalion trying to cross an open wheat field. It was said that no German came within 800 yards of the Marines.

So, to answer your question, early dedicated sniper rifles were invariably scoped, but open sighted rifles were pressed into service when required. I doubt any "special" sights were ever used, and I know of no such incident, although someone else might have a valid reference.

Jim

[Griff Murphey]

A little OT, but I am reminded in Henderson's book MARINE SNIPER (the first one, at least) he recounts an engagement in which Carlos Hathcock was doing his usual good work with the scoped M-70 while his spotter was laying out even more "hamburgers" with a standard iron sighted M-14. I think a lot of that shooting was done at night with air dropped or arty flare illumination. I realize this was in a war 50 years later, but it's interesting that even this recently, young eyes and an accurate rifle can still do the job, without a scope.

[libertyman777]

The Marines of WWI distinguished themselves with accurate rifle fire from over 700 yards away with unscoped rifles. But I don't guess they were acting as snipers in the purest sense of the word.
http://military.discovery.com/technology/weapons/rifles-08.html

But the great Simo Hayha of Finland was credited with over 700 kill with an iron sighted MN 28.

http://www.suite101.com/content/simo-h-yh--the-greatest-sniper--a5714


So to answer your question, I would say no, because the shooter can make the rifle a sniper.

[Herschel]

I have fired the M1 NM and M14 NM service rifles in competition at ranges of 200, 300, 500, 600 and 1,000 yards. The rifles are accurate at these ranges, service grade rifles probably somewhat less accurate than the NM but nonetheless accurate. This shooting was done with iron sights. Shooting at a black on white target of course is simpler than shooting at a person in a uniform that blends in with the background. The problem facing snipers is identifying the target. That is the reason for sniper scopes. The army used to say the maximum effective range for the M1 rifle was 500 yards. This was because that was the maximum range when an individual soldier could be recognized well enough to get a good sight picture. Accurate shooting with these rifles was possible at longer ranges but was pretty much limited to targets on the skyline or somehow outlined against a background so that they could be seen.

I never before heard the story of the marines stopping the enemy from getting closer than 800 yards. I don't doubt the truth of the report but the Germans must have been the victims of volley fire. Shooting at an individual moving soldier at more than 800 yards would be very challenging. In a no wind situation and with the troops coming straight at you, hits could have been made on a target that could be seen. Maybe the Germans were dumb enough to pose silhouetted on a skyline but I doubt it.

[Griff Murphey]

When you try hunting with iron sights, particularly in the "over 50" set, you have an appreciation for the difficulty with this.

[jgaynor]

Selected P14's were issued with a fine adjustment (elevation only) rear sight for sniping - the P14(F). later Model 1918 scopes were added and they became the P14(T).
I believe the Norwegian Krag M1925 sniper was also issued with only a micrometer rear sight.

Regards,

Jim

[snakehunter]

When you try hunting with iron sights, particularly in the "over 50" set, you have an appreciation for the difficulty with this.

How right you are. I never even used a scope until I got in the Army.

[Sunray]

"...early sniper rifles..." Brit sniper's rifles were scoped, commercial, hunting rifles in W.W. I. No standard issue sniper's rifle at all.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I never before heard the story of the marines stopping the enemy from getting closer than 800 yards. I don't doubt the truth of the report but the Germans must have been the victims of volley fire. Shooting at an individual moving soldier at more than 800 yards would be very challenging. In a no wind situation and with the troops coming straight at you, hits could have been made on a target that could be seen. Maybe the Germans were dumb enough to pose silhouetted on a skyline but I doubt it.

This engagement took place just north of Le Mare Farm on 5 June 1918. The Germans were advancing in loose formation uphill across a wheat field. The Marines started firing at 800 yards and literally whipped out the German advance. At least one sniper (A5 scoped 03) had confirmed kills at 1400 yards (Roland Fisher). Both German accounts as well as Marine accounts confirm individual aimed kill shots at 800 yards. It was not volley firing.

Jim

[Sharpsman]

Most people don't have a clue....what an accomplished rifleman can do with a good rifle and scope! Roland Fisher accomplished what he was given an award for and as for determining distances during WWI...there was very accurate distance measuring equipment available at the time and the old '06 round is way under-rated by those that don't know it's true capabilities!! Most likely the 5 June 1918 was the correct date of this event!

#
Silver Star Citation

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Awarded for actions during the World War I

By direction of the President, under the provisions of the act of Congress approved July 9, 1918 (Bul. No. 43, W.D., 1918), Private Roland Fisher (MCSN: 75993/117536), United States Marine Corps, is cited by the Commanding General, American Expeditionary Forces, for gallantry in action and a silver star may be placed upon the ribbon of the Victory Medals awarded him. Private Fisher distinguished himself by gallantry in action while serving with Company G, 5th Regiment (Marines), 2d Division, American Expeditionary Forces, in action at Belleau Woods, France, 11 June 1918, while acting as a sniper under heavy enemy fire.

General Orders: GHQ, American Expeditionary Forces, Citation Orders No. 9 (August 1, 1920)

Action Date: June 11, 1918

Service: Marine Corps

Rank: Private

Company: Company G

Regiment: 5th Regiment (Marines)

Division: 2d Division, American Expeditionary Forces

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

According to the documents in his file, Fisher had 6 kills at 1440 yards that day, witnessed by an officer, a staff NCO, and a Sgt. The Marines killed hundreds of Germans at 800 yards that day. Marksmanship was very important in those days; and Holcomb, for instance, wanted nothing but Expert marksmen in his battalion. The French and the Germans were awed by the Marines' ability to fire accurately at long ranges.

Jim