1903A4 safett question

[pelago]

I have assembled a 1903A4 (repro)

Remington 1903A3 receiver
still in cosmo R 1944 barrel
correct scope base and rings (redfield jr dated 44)
original "C" stock (replacement)
Lyman Alaskan WWII vintage

rifle is assembled, bolt bent and it holds sub minute group at 100, real close using hornady A Max left over from perry

here is the question, i can not find any reference to shortening the safety , all the pictures and diagrams really do not show the safety and if it adjusted to be somewhat shorter, unless there were different ht rings?? i sure can not find out

comments

ps, was quite fun to build, next thing to do is parkerize it

[Johnny in Texas]

I was surprised when I realized it. Where is your redfield jr mount dated and can you post picture?

[jgaynor]

The safety was never shortened. Regarding the M73B1(or 330C) the manual addresses the fact that the safety will bear on the side of the scope tube. With a Lyman Alaskan if the scope is mounted with the turrets ahead of the forward ring the safety lever may clear the eyepiece lens as per the attached photo from a 1943 TM.

Regards,

Jim

[pelago]

ahhhhhhh ha!!!

i knew there was a reason i liked this place, this will also improve the eye relief when using sling
but damn it sure shots good

3/4MOA at hundred with hornady ammo

[pelago]

i bought i years ago and the date was stil on the cardboard box that the base and rings came in. is it stamped on the metal no, it was on the box. let me rephrase, i fully believe that it is accurate and from forties

pictures posted on a sep threadhttp://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w57/pelago177/1903A4replica002.jpg

[Match223]

Good looking 03A4gery, I built mine from a Remington 1903, my team finished 7th in the Vintage Sniper Match at Creedmoor in May. The group is 5 shots of Hornaday CMP ammo with a called flyer out to the left @ 100 yards.
It has the original 4 groove barrel, the rifle was a sporterized (Drilled & Tapped) $250.00 truck gun when I bought it.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh34/match223/Bannerman%2037/DSC00627.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh34/match223/Bannerman%2037/DSC00619.jpg

[pelago]

did you have any issues with the scope and the base (redfield base) at the rear of the mount the curved part of the adjustable focus meeting the base, mine touches and i feel that i might have to relieve the base a little.

my safety clears okay, but it is a bit tight where scope and base meed, since this was the made up gun in the forties, i bet many armorers had to remove some metal at the the rear part of the base some

i shot a moissan nagant and really did okay with it, but it is hard for two people to shoot with the same scope

[Match223]

You have to relieve the rear of the base behind the rear ring , I had to have the front of the 03 base shortened to make room for the handguard ring so I had them mill it down at the same time. You can see the difference in the pic's, I also had them relieve the right side of the mount so the sn was visable (except the last # under the handguard ring).

You will appriciate the 03A4gery in prone and it is easy for multiple shooters since it is similar to shooting your favorite hunting rifle.
Is your lyman a post reticle or crosshair, Mine is a post.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh34/match223/Bannerman%2037/DSC00634.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh34/match223/Bannerman%2037/DSC00630.jpg

[pelago]

i agree, and yours looks great. i bet when the need for snipers came out and using materials at hand required ingenuity with the redfield base and the lyman scope, and i bet that the developed scope had the adjustable part made smaller diameter just for that purpose..

did you mill off the dovetail left on the 03A3??

i will pull the scope off and get clever with some machinery i have available...

another question, did you or do you use a cheek pad with your rifle, i needed one for themoissan the scope is so freakin high i needed iot

when i am in prone i have steady contact with the stock, but with this lash up i need some more meat where i put my cheek

i have only shot mine once and was just plaing around but so far so good

and i like your reference to 03A4gery works for me!!

[Match223]

I shot it just like it is, I started with a sporterized Remington 1903 that is why the bridge looks different. There is no advantage to using an 03 over an 03A3, actually there is less metal in the bridge to thread so it is definately weaker back there. I had the rifle laying around and I didn't want to ruin a good 03A3 to shoot a test match.

Gary

[pelago]

mine had been kind of gorped up also, the barrel had rust and pitts in it, and it had been drilled for (thank goodness) the correct base

i had the new barrel, still in cosmoline, i had the scope base (in a box with a receipt from the forties, and box marked in the forties) also had the stock, just had to get correct scope, i looked at the m73B1 and the M84 and found them really pricey, but i knew that the alaskan was used first (at least so i have been told) because it was available and the need required a scope

my plan is to shoot it next spring at butner

[Johnny in Texas]

The first USGI scope mount was flat it the rear from the side view later there was a angle or slope to allow for the scope eyepiece bell. The large radius in the bolt handle fits the radius of the M84 scope w/rubber eyeguard installed. The M84 or something like it must have been on the drawing board in late '42. Also make the surplus A4's very easy to sporterize by cutting the stock and adding a nice '50's era Redfield or Kollmorgen scope and have a great hunting rifle for little money.

[jgaynor]

Both the Lyman Alaskan (M73) and the WEaver 330C (M73B1) were approved for the A4. The scopes bases were relieved mainly for the larger eyepiece lens of the Alaskan. The radical bolt handle mod was probably done for the same reason.
In some of the early manuals the back end of the Redfield base looks straight but on all the actual production rifles I have seen with a GI Redfield base the base has the bevel.

Regards,

Jim

[pelago]

i wonder if redfield bases were milled that way or if the army removed the metal, my base was in a brown cardboard box, printing pretty faded and it had some dates on it, hand written with some signatures, i no longer have the box, probably dumb thing but i misplaced it or lost it or ?? i believe it is from forties,

I relieved the rear end of the base with a dremel tool, and then polished it and blued it, and it looks right and the bell of the scope clears the base with little issue, quite a bit of forward and back adj is avail for different eyeballs.

i am happy with it

I dont believe that this was built as a sniper rifle like we know snipers today, but built as a extreme accurate rifle for the war, in as much as the snipers we think of today were just not around in 42,43, so forth.

but it must have done its job, like to see more about it in history, anyone have any reference books or articles???

[Johnny in Texas]

The Lyman Alaskan scopes that were marked TELESCOPE M73 were cross hair reticule scopes
marked Lyman Alaskan as well as TELESCOPE M73 and in s/n range 49XX to 5300 not inclusive.The bevel is slight but the corners are sharp with the Lyman Alaskan was not in use in on A4's except for the 150 M73 marked scopes and most of those were remarked M81 and would have ended up on M1C's . The 330C /M73B1 was the official scope and the only scope in the supply chain until the 1903A4 production had ended in Jan. '44. I have never seen an Alaskan pictured in a TM for use on the A4 only the 330C/M73B1 and the M84.

[jgaynor]

The Lyman Alaskan scopes that were marked TELESCOPE M73 were cross hair reticule scopes
marked Lyman Alaskan as well as TELESCOPE M73 and in s/n range 49XX to 5300 not inclusive.The bevel is slight but the corners are sharp with the Lyman Alaskan was not in use in on A4's except for the 150 M73 marked scopes and most of those were remarked M81 and would have ended up on M1C's . The 330C /M73B1 was the official scope and the only scope in the supply chain until the 1903A4 production had ended in Jan. '44. I have never seen an Alaskan pictured in a TM for use on the A4 only the 330C/M73B1 and the M84.

The thread basically dealt with the genesis of the design of the scope mount. While the Alaskan (later militarized as the M73) was never delivered in time for A4 production it was ordnance's intention to use it and the Weaver from the get go.

The Alaskan and the Weaver 330C were the two scopes recommended in the report of the subcommittee (12/42) that finalized the design for the A4.
The Alaskan is also mentioned as an alternate in TM-9-270 although no pictures appear. (6/43)
The Alaskan and the Weaver are also illustrated on A4's in TM9-2200 (Oct 43).
Finally in 1956 ordnance issued orders authorizing the use of any remaining M73's, M81's and M82's on an "exhaust basis".

Lyman was supposed to deliver 700 Alaskans starting in September 43. Eventually a total of 24,565 were to be delivered. The Weaver contract for M73B1's was terminated as of Nov 43.

However fate stepped in. Lyman was getting its lenses from Bausch and Lomb who were busy with other, presumably higher priority, war work. As a result Lyman got no lenses and no Alaskans were delivered in time for A4's even though the rifle had been designed to accomodate them as well the 8 or 9 minor variants of the Weaver type scope.

Ordnance had to reverse its position with Weaver who then continued making M73B1's up through 1945 as spares.

The few M73's that eventually materialized were as you said used on M1C's. Experience with the Weavers illustrated the need for modifications (the eye shield and sunshade) so the M73 had a short life - The Alaskan quickly became the M81 (crosswire) and then the M82 (post). The M84 wasdesigned to be truly moisture resistant and while adopted in 1945 probably didn't really see the light fo day until well after WW2.

Most of this information can be found on the net. TM 9-2200 (10/43) is a little hard to find so the picture showing the A4 with both scopes is attached below. Note the manual's caption writer screwed up the descriptions.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

[Johnny in Texas]

jgaynor thanks for setting the fact straight I was working from memory. I have seen pics of M1903A4's in the S.A. museum with M81 M82 and M73 a well as M73B1 and M84. I know the thread is about the safety but I thought these guys who want to build a FauX A4 might want to know the real story about the scopes rather than the Legend! You gave a great explanation as well as the reality about Lyman not having the glass to produce the scopes in '43. My point is that the Alaskan /M73 is the least likely scope to be issued on the M1903A4. They are now the easiest and cheapest to come by so the Legend of the Alakan being correct for the A4 lives on.

[pelago]

here i one for the history guys

parrallax, (SP) when did it come to play on long distance accurate rifles, or did it during WWII

i know on the lyman alaskan i have, when sitting on a bench and not touching rifle movement of head moves impact on target cross hairs, consequently same cheek pressure has to be or has to have been a issue with early rifles

[Johnny P]

All rifle scopes have parallax, and can be set to be parallax free at one distance. The parallax occurs when the image is focused either ahead or behind the reticle, and this is why the image moves when the position of the eye moves. Most scopes up to about 9 power don't have parallax adjustments, but as the power goes up this becomes more critical. Either a focusing ring on the front of the scope or a side adjustment is provided to eliminate the parallax.
If the eye could be precisely placed each time, the parallax would not be of as much concern.

[pelago]

If the eye could be precisely placed each time

i agree, but i was just commenting on this, and during the war i wonder what was taught for usage of this rifle

i shoot a 1903 with a douglas barrel and it has a 22 pwr unertl, i adj for parrallx with the scope, but it (scope) had that built in, depending on how i read the wind, i can hold ten ring at 1k yards with this scope. but this is a different animal than a WWII 1903A4

[Johnny P]

Parallax was the same then as now. Due to the low power of the scope it was not as much of a problem, but was present. The shooter could have set his scope to be parallax free at 100, 200 or whatever yardage he preferred, but it was not readily adjustable. As mentioned the problem gets worse as the power goes up, so your Unertl scope has a focusing ring on the front to eliminate parallax at the distance you are shooting.
The Leupold Mark 4 M3 has side focusing for parallax adjustment.

http://i35.tinypic.com/dyt2qc.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/28le0z8.jpg

[pelago]

no argument at all!!
and it is amazing how well the parallax can be adjusted out of the picture

the unertl is used with a family gun and that is a 1903 heavy barrel rifle been in family for many many years

I have shot this 03 in competition and it shoots quite well, i was able to shoot a clean at 600 with lyman 48 sights shot a 200/12...

when the unertl added it really can shoot well, my grandfather built this rifle and he used a old style adj sling attach using steel plate with adj threaded holes to move sling swivel, it took a piece of rod, threaded it and adj it with file to accept harris bi pod. did it without modification of the original rifle
Man, when i put the bipod to it and got prone it really became quite a rifle, barrel is original douglas from 30's great numbers on guage and it does shoot, has the buttplate of the times Neidnor (sp) and it can be a shoulder cruncher, but that was what was done in the 30's, i have not shot it with bipod at any longer than 600, but with the unertl scope at 22 power can read mirage and put crosshairs to adj for windage and keep the rounds in X ring with not too much difficulty.

i am looking forward to shooting the "forged" 03A4 with Hornady loads, same ones used at Perry, and i have made up some of what i think is damn close to the same round with nosler bullets

should be fun

[jgaynor]

Pelago, johnny's explanations of parallax are right on the mark. If its really noticeable on your Alaskan you might try adjusting the focus.

1. Position the rifle so the scope is pointed toward a clear view of the sky and loosen the focussing locking ring.
2. Hold your head away from the scope and look at the sky to relax your eyes.
3. Then look quickly thru the scope and adjust the eyepiece back and forth.
4. make the adjustments in small increments pulling your eye away from the scope and looking at the sky to relax your eye.
5. when the reticle is in sharp focus tighten the locking ring.

Lets us know how you make out.

Jim

[pelago]

i have done that, and as of yet have not really shot it, the rifle shot well, now probably this week will start with the scope.

want to get a good zero at 200 yards, then make a card out as far as i can go, can shoot up to 1k at butner, but probably will never shoot it longer than 600

especially want to be ready for the "Vintage Sniper" match next spring, and i have duplicated as close as possible the Hornady match Garand ammo that CMP issues, i have found that this is pretty good stuff and all of my military rifles shoot real well with this amm, i think i have duplicated it