Long barrell development

[Jeff L]

It's interesting that the US military didn't develop longer barrel versions of either the M14 or M16 for sniper purposes the way the the Soviets developed the Dragunov sniper rifle.

-Jeff L

[Andrew W. Priestley]

The dragunov is more than just a long barrelled AK. It's a complete design based on the Kalashnikov action, but purpose designed as a sniper rifle. Actual real-world performance is not nearly as good as was claimed. The M21 and M25 versions of the M14 perform better, out to longer ranges.

The M16 long range sniper version is a 7.62 version and outperforms the M21 or M25 in most respects. The Designated marksmans Rifle version of the M16 actually has a shorter barrel, but longer than the M4. 18 inches, but since it's heavy and free-floated, it is more accurate and that's a whole lot of the battle.

[Shooter5]

Having said that (see above), that design is usually more than adequate for many battlefield situations. It has made many a hit. Russian philosophy appears to emphasize functionality over the mythical 'one-shot' kill of a 3 day stalk. The design fits very well with their tactics and strategy. As usual, it took the US of A about 30 years to catch up.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I think the Russians are way behind on the sniper front. The USA is getting invaluable experience in both long range (Afghanistan) and urban sniping (Iraq). The American sniper has a whole lot of tools not available just a few years ago. The new range calculator and slot shot capability are at the forefront of the sniper game, and our rifle/scope array is impressive and second to none. The Dragunov is over-rated and accurate out to about 500 yards. I had rather have an 03 with Unertl than the Dragunov.

Barrel length has zip to do with accuracy, but does give slightly higher velocities (~100 fps per inch of barrel). Since time immortal, it is wind bucking ability and yaw stabilization that make the real difference (the bullet) at long range. Under 200 yards, a 30-30 would do the trick. Under 100 yards, you are better off with a shotgun.

Jim

[Shooter5]

Many shots are taken inside of 500m, especially in urban environments. Small teams are vulnerable there and one man shows do not exist due to the risk.
Multi-shot capability with fast reloads quickly is seen as a plus. Hence the light bulb realization an M110 system should be fielded. Duh, it was invented awhile back...just not here. Ask anyone on a team that had to CQB with a bolt action. NOT fun.
Russian doctrine is effective. Several good references exist for the current US conflicts as well as Chechnya, the Balkans and Afghanistan circa 1980's.
Lots of US troops have been hit by Drags and even open sight AKs. A hit is a hit is a hit whether by a 'sniper' or otherwise.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I would say that the vast majority of combat shots are way well within 500m, and I have no idea of the average range for sniper shots. Scout Sniper teams have been comprised of two man teams since WWI, and I think it is a 3-man team now. Multiple quick shots from a single location is not a good idea if you are a sniper, unless you are immune to artillery and bullets. I think that had a lot to do with the slot shooting the Marines specialize in now. I have no idea what the Russian doctrine is, but our snipers are highly successful these days, and we successfully put them up against anyone, anywhere. My point was that if I was in Afghanistan, and I had my choice of sniper rifles, the Dragunov would be my last choice. If I was in Iraq, the Dragunov still wouldn't be my first choice. If I lay there and blast away shot after shot, I probably wouldn't have to worry about re-enlisting. If I need that many shots, I shouldn't be a sniper in the first place.

Other than cool looking, what is the advantage of the Dragunov? It certainly isn't accuracy.

Jim

[Shooter5]

Not always would one displace after shooting. One shot and gone is not always necessary. There are many types of battlefield situations and environments. That somehow 'one shot and one shot only' has become near mythical. At times, shoot as much and as often as necessary. That is why a bolt gun is not always the right tool. Sniper teams have to be tailored to the mission and situation. Many urban missions do not allow for small unit teams to be just left alone and beyond contact. See Anbar province or Bagdad, Falluja, Ramadi, etc. Units have had to act within large elements due to overwhelming superiorty of the number of hostile forces and population. The Corps in particular has had several teams rolled up due to various reasons not the least of which was 'out there hanging.'
Some of after action studies of insurgent shootings found that many shots were being taken inside of 200m against us. Too often the zone we always taught troops to look at was always way beyond that, mainly because of a bias that 'snipers always shoot from hundreds of meters out.' You can get sniped at 50m.
The Drag and any old other raggedy rifle can usually do what is needed inside 5.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I agree. Iraq has presented some nasty situations. Having to be cleared to engage has got to be driving them nuts. I understand there are no free fire zones.

Jim

[snakehunter]

Not always would one displace after shooting. One shot and gone is not always necessary. There are many types of battlefield situations and environments. That somehow 'one shot and one shot only' has become near mythical. At times, shoot as much and as often as necessary. That is why a bolt gun is not always the right tool. Sniper teams have to be tailored to the mission and situation. Many urban missions do not allow for small unit teams to be just left alone and beyond contact. See Anbar province or Bagdad, Falluja, Ramadi, etc. Units have had to act within large elements due to overwhelming superiorty of the number of hostile forces and population. The Corps in particular has had several teams rolled up due to various reasons not the least of which was 'out there hanging.'
Some of after action studies of insurgent shootings found that many shots were being taken inside of 200m against us. Too often the zone we always taught troops to look at was always way beyond that, mainly because of a bias that 'snipers always shoot from hundreds of meters out.' You can get sniped at 50m.
The Drag and any old other raggedy rifle can usually do what is needed inside 5.

Correct. "Shoot and scoot" or "shoot and s**t (or sit if you prefer) _always_ depends on the tactical situation.

[TomSudz]

I agree. Iraq has presented some nasty situations. Having to be cleared to engage has got to be driving them nuts. I understand there are no free fire zones.

Jim

Depending on why you are where you are, clearance might not be needed, it may be pre-approved. If it is needed, it generally comes pretty quick if you explain very clearly (i.e., clearly enough that an officer can understand) what you have.

[mike24d20]

Russian sniper teams belive in KISS. The carry enough ammo an a pistol along with a AK-47 or 74 for short range work. At least this was what we were taught in the 70's for those of us chosen ( forced ) too delay the enemy. An out too about 800 meters the Drac. is a fine wepon system if feed the correct ammo. An the 7.62 x 54 is as good as the 30-06. The Russians do not totaly belive in the one shot policy. They mostly belive in shoot untill the target is taken out.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The evaluation of the Druganov at the Stoney Point sniper school indicated the Druganov was a good 500 yard weapon. I did not take part in the evaluation, I only know the results. I have fired the Druganov and I was not impressed. Depending on how it is deployed, I am sure it fills a need and is probably effective. I question your statement as to the comparison of the 7.62x54 and the 30-06. I would think it is closer to 308 specs than the 30-06, but I don't know your basis for comparison. They will both kill, but the 7.62x54 can never equal the 30-06, just as the 308 can never equal the 30-06. Just curious.

Jim

[mike24d20]

I have reloaded for over 30 + yrs. an the 7.62 x 54 uses a larger bullet that can be pushed at 30/06 speed. An within the 800 meter range it is as effective as a 30/06 or even a .308. For reloading I use the layman/speer an other manuals I have on hand. An as stated the Drac system is simple an it is better than 500 yd. range, it might not be a good looking as some of our new sniper wepons out there but it has been around a heck of a lot longer. An there is a differance between ba an sa systems.