First NRA match at 200 300 and 600 fired today

[PhillipM]

I pretty much got my butt handed to me by the AR's at the Burns range but I learned much and had some fun. My standing score went from the high thirties to the 59 so I'm pleased I show some improvement. My sitting position, uncomfortable and muscled into position in the past, improved greatly and was very comfortable, I could have shot in position all day. We had the option of shooting either 50 or 80 rounds, so I opted for the 80. By the time I arrived at the 600 yard line the wind was about 20mph and just swirling all over so I tried to shoot when the flag went limp.

I shot the course with handloads consisting of 168 SMK and Hornandy 168 custom competition over 46 grains of IMR 4895 and used CCI 200's to light the fire. I have some 175 SMK's I'll try at 600 next time. On a practical level, with a service rifle is it worth the effort to segregate cases by manufacturer or even commercial and military?

200 yard standing
59
49

200 yard rapid sitting
85-1
82

300 yard rapid prone
82
65

600 yard slow prone
66
71


Aggregate is 559-1 or 70%, which leaves much room for improvement. Out of six shooters I was 5th, edging out the only other Garand. The winner was Dan Hinson with a 706.

I also learned how to pull and score targets in the pits and scrounged up a leather coat that made life much easier.

[Maury Krupp]

For a first time shooting Across-the-Course there's nothing wrong with those scores. Probably didn't have any zeros for 3 and 6 did you?

Getting better at Standing takes dryfire and practice. Lots of it.

A one minute up-one minute down holding drill builds muscle memory and shortens the eye-trigger finger circuit. It also tells you where your *real* NPOA is. You can't muscle the rifle for a full minute; it'll eventually end up where *it* wants to be (and will be when you relax as the shot breaks anyway)

Short-range (25 or 50yd) practice with a .22 does the same with visible feedback.

When first starting out I had good luck with Jim Owens' "Sub-Six Hold" That's putting the front sight way down in the white halfway between the black and the frame. Without the distraction of the aiming black I was better able to accept my wobble area and focus on the front sight. When the front sight stops moving break the shot. No more snatching the trigger as the black zooms past :icon_e_surprised:

Your first rapid string at 2 and 3 was always your best. Why do you think that was?

Shooting 600yd with an "As Issued" M1 is always ah, um, err, "a challenge :eusa_whistle:" Until you get better at reading wind, concentrate on holding elevation. Most errors are going to be you so stay off the knobs. Don't chase the spotter. Once you're shooting a tight elevation group you can move it where you want and concentrate on learning to read wind.

Don't let the ratgunnerz get you down. If you decide not to join that crowd then when you do beat them with your M1 it's pretty sweet :headbang:

Your load looks fine. Unless it's easy to do by headstamp I don't think it's really necessary to segregate brass. Maybe civilian vs military but that's about it.

Oh, and the main question "Did you have fun?"

Maury

[dzelenka]

You ought to follow Dan Henson down to Palo Alto in two weeks. We have an 800 aggregate on Saturday and a leg match on Sunday. We shot a mid range prone championship this weekend. 6 x 600. That breeze you were shooting in was certainly present down here too.

[PhillipM]

Probably didn't have any zeros for 3 and 6 did you? I've never fired my M1 on paper past 200 yards and only some steel targets out to 300. I searched the internet for "come ups" and was fortunate to be very close using +3 for 300 and +12 for 600. I was sweating whether I'd hit paper at 600.

A one minute up-one minute down holding drill builds muscle memory and shortens the eye-trigger finger circuit. It also tells you where your *real* NPOA is. You can't muscle the rifle for a full minute; it'll eventually end up where *it* wants to be (and will be when you relax as the shot breaks anyway)
Please explain how to do this drill with regards to breathing. My personal "coach" DM Clyde Morgan already explained the need to rest and look at the ground between shots and use the whole 10 minutes. He's a great guy and will freely offer all he knows but I have to ask, and for now I don't know what I don't know.


Short-range (25 or 50yd) practice with a .22 does the same with visible feedback.
I have a Rem 513 I put in a LEAD target stock from the shopper for practice.


When first starting out I had good luck with Jim Owens' "Sub-Six Hold" That's putting the front sight way down in the white halfway between the black and the frame. Without the distraction of the aiming black I was better able to accept my wobble area and focus on the front sight. When the front sight stops moving break the shot. No more snatching the trigger as the black zooms past

I've had an M1 since I was 15 and always used center hold for hunting and plinking and have read Owen's "sight alignment and the big lie". During the matches I am zero'ed for a 6 o'clock hold but when standing and wobbling around my instinct is to fall back on what I know and cover half the black with the front sight when I fire. During supported fire I can think about the fundamentals and do okay. When I'm out of my comfort zone, mainly standing but including rapid sitting with a bad hold against the clock, I lose it and revert to center hold when I break the trigger. Most of my crappy standing hits are high as a result. I've already learned the mental game is the toughest thing about this sport... and that's why I like it!


Shooting 600yd with an "As Issued" M1 is always ah, um, err, "a challenge " Until you get better at reading wind, concentrate on holding elevation. Most errors are going to be you so stay off the knobs. Don't chase the spotter. Once you're shooting a tight elevation group you can move it where you want and concentrate on learning to read wind.

Please define a "tight elevation group" in inches, well maybe rings since the target gets marked and cleared, so I can learn to when to learn how to deal with the wind.

Thanks for your help Mr. Krupp. I've gathered from reading your name here and there that you are one of the best shooters out there and really make M1's shine.

I had FUN!

[PhillipM]

You ought to follow Dan Henson down to Palo Alto in two weeks. We have an 800 aggregate on Saturday and a leg match on Sunday. We shot a mid range prone championship this weekend. 6 x 600. That breeze you were shooting in was certainly present down here too.

I'll try my best to get down there. Is this the one where some AMU members are coming?

The official scores were emailed to me, I was wrong, Dan lost by a hair.


We had 6 participants in the SWGC HP service rifle match yesterday, 2 October 2010.
The course of fire was NRA Service rifle 50 round course. However we had shooters who wished to fire the 80 round course;
** indicates the shooter fired the 80 round course
Scores:

Ben H. 443-5x / 88.6%
Dan H. 706-10x / 88.2%**
Colby O. 382-4x / 76.4%
Tony O. 358-1x / 71.6%
Phillip M 559-1x / 69.8% **
Kelly B. 340-2x / 68%

Phillip M. and Kelly B. both fired M1 Garands; all others fired an AR 15 rifle.
Thanks to all for coming out on a beautiful day. Hope to see you all next month on Saturday, 6 November for another HP Service rifle match.

[Maury Krupp]

The one minute up-one minute down drill works like this:

Set your timer for one minute. Bring the rifle up, settle, break the shot as normal. Then, instead of bringing the rifle down continue to hold for the rest of the minute. You can resume normal breathing and need not look through the sights. In fact closing your eyes for a while then re-looking through your sights will tell you a lot about your NPOA. At the end of the minute bring the rifle down and rest for a minute. Repeat 10-20 times.

A cheap-o kitchen timer works well because they countdown then beep for a minute then auto reset. Start timer, hold until it beeps, rest until it stops beeping, start timer, lather-rinse-repeat.

Relaxing and taking the whole ten (12 or 22) minutes is excellent advice. It's not a race. If something's not right, if the gun won't settle, settles in the wrong place, or anything else, stop, back out, and start over. It takes a fair amount of mental discipline but it pays off.

Just about any .22 and any ammo will work. What you're trying to do is get so when your eye *sees* a 10 your trigger finger *takes* a 10. Without your brain getting in the way and before the front sight has a chance to move out of the 10-ring. Ray-Vin http://www.ray-vin.com/ has 25 and 50yd targets to print. Get them now as Ray and Ruby are retiring 31 Dec 10 and the web site will probably go away.

If you don't want to try the Sub-Six you still might want to re-think the six o'clock hold for Standing. I don't know anybody who uses it. I'm sure it can be done but I think it might encourage bad trigger control. The temptation to yank in that millisecond when you see everything lined up is pretty big. Most everyone I know seems to use a Center hold on the theory that if it breaks anywhere in the black it's at least a 9!

If you're using a center hold and want to work on shrinking your wobble area try this dryfire drill:

Make up a set of dryfire targets with successively smaller aiming blacks. Start with one as big as the 5-ring. When you can consistently hold and break the shot inside that black, switch to one 6-ring size, then 7-ring, etc.

A "tight elevation group" is relative. Of course nothing higher or lower vertically than the 10-ring is ideal but the 9 is probably more achieveable. Maybe even the 8-ring IF you call those shots high or low. The idea is to focus on the things you can control. If this shot's way high and the last one was way low what changed? The load's the same. The rifle's the same. Even a light change will only be worth around a half-MOA. So it must be you. Stay off the elevation knob until your hold can produce shots that land within the same horizontal zone.

Now I'm not saying to ignore the wind altogether; you'll learn a little just by osmosis. Rather don't let a 7, 6, or even a 5 at 3 or 9 o'clock bother you. Everybody misses a wind change now and then. If your shot's at 3 or 9 at least you can take comfort in knowing without the wind the shot *would* have been good ;)

I sometimes have my good moments but there are a lot of shooters out there who are a lot better than I am. My sole "claim to fame" (if there is any such thing) is that in this era of plastic-fantastics I'm one of the few still shooting an M1 across-the-course :eusa_wall:

Maury

[dzelenka]

It isn't. The AMU comes to the Regional in April (this year so did the All Guard team). They have already made reservations for housing for next April. I am serious when I say that they love to shoot on this range. The fact that we feed them pretty well doesn't hurt, I'm sure.

This month will be a well run match with good participation. It will be different from Bogue Chitto, if they haven't changed anything since the last time I was there. You really should come down.

By the way, if you want to shoot an AR, you can rent a RRA NM rifle for $5. You bring ammo. :)

[CMP Shooter]

Thanks for the tips Maury, this old shooter learned something new today.

[mdoerner]

Hi Maury,

Thanks for the tip on the 6 O'Clock hold. I've been using that across the board, maybe I'll try using the center hold for a match and see how that affects my score. Also, when is it appropriate to use 6 O' Clock, Center, and Navy (High) holds, respectively? Thanks!

Mike Doerner

[Maury Krupp]

...when is it appropriate to use 6 O' Clock, Center, and Navy (High) holds, respectively?

When each one works!

When and which one that will be depends on the shooter, the conditions, and sometimes even the rifle.

Most shooters have one hold they're used to or prefer but if that one's just not working because you can't see exactly what you need to see or it's not repeatable shot to shot or for some other reason then it's time to try something else.

That's the beauty of adjustable sights: It doesn't matter *where* you hold - only that the hold be the same shot-to-shot.

I know some competitors who shoot a different sight pic in each position. That's what works for them.

Try all the various sight pictures in practice and see which seems to work the best - For You.

Maury

[dzelenka]

Phillip was at Palo Alto this past weekend for the LA State Championship and leg match. He was trooping along with his M1 and looked like he was having a good time. I am interested to get his impressions, especially on his first leg match.

Dan

[PhillipM]

Phillip was at Palo Alto this past weekend for the LA State Championship and leg match. He was trooping along with his M1 and looked like he was having a good time. I am interested to get his impressions, especially on his first leg match.

Dan

I loved it! I haven't had time to really write up all I learned but suffice to say it is a very well run match. I liked the way everything was so well organized and especially how all the targets and scoring materials were laid out in the pits.

During scoring I really wasn't expecting to deal with alibi's but it happened three times!

As far as the M-1 goes, I had fun with my "war club" as Lee called it. It really concerned the line judge and the match director that I was shooting left handed but I've been shooting a Garand for about 25 years so it was no problem for me. My goal was to break 400 although I fell short at 386, it was just due to my dumb mistakes. The worst rookie dumb mistake I made was leaving a round long in the clip during the 300 yard rapid. I couldn't bang it down so I had to strip the clip, reload it and fire extra double quick rapid! I fired every time the front sight came back down in the black from recoil!

Dan, congratulations on your victory Saturday and your silver medal Sunday!

[Maury Krupp]

I loved it!

:eusa_dance:



...The worst rookie dumb mistake I made was leaving a round long in the clip during the 300 yard rapid. I couldn't bang it down so I had to strip the clip, reload it and fire extra double quick rapid!

Besides checking your clips when you lay out your gear in pre-prep, you should *ALWAYS* have a spare clip and a couple loose rounds laying on your mat. If something goes wrong with your primary, you drop it or it slips out of your hand to forward of the firing line, or the clip pukes out early all you have to do is go to your backups. No muss no fuss no panic :icon_redface:

Maury

[PhillipM]

Sir, you should write a book! I used 175's with 4064 at 600 and just held the seven ring. Is that the best an as issued Garand can do?

[dzelenka]

He cleared the problem, shot the remainder of the clip and calmly put the last round in and fired it with time to spare.

[dzelenka]

I loved it! I haven't had time to really write up all I learned but suffice to say it is a very well run match. I liked the way everything was so well organized and especially how all the targets and scoring materials were laid out in the pits.

Dan, congratulations on your victory Saturday and your silver medal Sunday!

Thanks for the kind words. We put a lot into the organization of the range and the matches. Don't be a stranger. We shoot across the course on the 3rd Saturday of every month. I look forward to shooting with you again.

Dan

[Maury Krupp]

...I used 175's with 4064 at 600 and just held the seven ring. Is that the best an as issued Garand can do?
I wouldn't say "the best" but it's probably pretty close on average.

Theoretically, if the rifle will mostly hold the 3.5MOA SR 10-ring at 200yd (as most As Issued M1s will) then it should hold somewhere close to the 3MOA 9-ring at 600yd.

That's in theory; reality is usually quite different thanks not only to the gun but the conditions and shooter as well. Much frustration can come from not knowing which of those caused that errant shot :icon_scratch:

Short-range (100 & 200yd) practice can help identify shooter issues. More full course experience will help you recognize and deal with conditions and their changes.

But having a gun that puts the bullets where you point them is pretty important too. That's one of the reasons why ratgunz are so popular; they usually shoot to call out of the box. An M1 can be made to shoot that way as well but it's more work.

While there's some thinking involved, highpower rifle is mostly an acquired motor skill. It takes practice, repetition, and refinement. So for now if an As Issued M1 is the rifle you've got then that's the rifle you shoot :63:

Real improvement only happens at the range with the true tests coming at matches. It sounds like you've got a good place to shoot and good people to shoot with so take advantage of it every chance you get.

Maury