Anyone know what ammo was used for sniping in Vietnam ?

[Johnny in Texas]

I always assume it was the white box Match M72 and XM118.

I'm sure they used what they had but was the white box Match ammo common to see.

[rickgman]

Johnny, It has been documented that Carlo Hatchcock use M72 ammo. Can't speak to the subject of 7.62mm ammo. Rick

[Sunray]

I think it was mentioned in "Marine Sniper". Hathcock's biography. I'd have to find the book to look.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Hathcock used a Unertl 7.8 powered scope on a match grade Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 with a special, straight from Lake City, lot of international match ammo utilizing 173 gr BT bullets at 2550 fps, as did all the early Marine snipers. Hathcock's rifle only shot 2 MOA. He made good use of that 2 MOA. His longest shot was 2500 yards with an M-2 with the same scope mounted that he used on his rifle. Excellent Marine who deserves a lot of respect. He certainly has mine.

Jim

[Garden Valley]

All the snipers I encountered had M40 rifles and M118 Match ammo. XM118 Match was standardized as M118 in 1965 as I recall.

[Johnny in Texas]

20 years ago I shot up a can of XM118 '63 before I realized what I had. I still have 2 cans of '66 M 118 and 2 cans of '68 M118 will probably never shoot it.

[Johnny in Texas]

I have heard that Hathcock's rifle was a 2 MOA rifle. Maybe the Standard M72 @ 2650 FPS. would have shot a little better. My prewar M70 target will shoot 1 MOA with it. But I never laid in the bush with ants crawling into my shirt and pant and tried it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

In my mind, Hathcock's greatest achievement was killing Apache. He made many incredible shots, and had courage in boatloads. He was a true blue combat Marine.

Jim

[bd1]

I have heard that Hathcock's rifle was a 2 MOA rifle. Maybe the Standard M72 @ 2650 FPS. would have shot a little better. My prewar M70 target will shoot 1 MOA with it. But I never laid in the bush with ants crawling into my shirt and pant and tried it.

4-groove Model 70 .30-06's shoot the old M72 real good.

[Chris F]

match grade Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 with a special, straight from Lake City, lot of international match ammo utilizing 173 gr BT bullets at 2550 fps, as did all the early Marine snipers.
International Match was a low velocity, low recoil round produced for 300M International Shooting per Hatcher's spec. IIR the velocity specified was ~2200 to 2300fp and was loaded exclusively by FA. Do you have a source that you can point me toward for that bit of information?

[GregV]

Interesting article in "The Small Arms Review - Vol. 6 No. 1 - October, 2002".

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/m40.pdf

[Johnny in Texas]

I have about 10 boxes of 7.62MM REM. International Match in the green box and it crono's at 2300 FPS also. Used for 300M running man shoot I was told. it is loaded with Remington 168gr HP bullet. super accurate but slow. I don't know what max accurate range would be at that velocity. I have shot the M72 straight out of the box @ 1000 yrds. with good results.

[Cosine26]

For Chris
Here is some informtion. Most of the information that I haved has been found in various American Rifle magazines from the 1920's & 1930's. Here is some information that I have found:
FA 56 International Match Ammo
Further research indicates that the FA 56 International Match Ammo was used by James E. Smith and Herbert B. Voelecker for the 300 meter Olympic shooting event in Melbourne Australia in November 1956. Both shooters used Hammerli rifles chambered in 7.62 mm NATO. They were provided three different varieties of ammo; two furnished by Frankfort Arsenal and one by Western Cartridge Company. The two loadings of FA were loaded with the 30M72 bullet –a 173 grain 9 degree uncannelured boat tailed bullet. One lot was loaded to 2250 fps and the second was to 2450 fps. The Western load was loaded into WCC cases and used what appears to be non-canister IMR4064 powder and interestingly enough uses the Western 8 ½ G primer which is both corrosive and mercuric.
Smith shot a 1082 while Voeleker shot a 1075. They selected the 2250 fps 7.62 mm NATO round identified as the T275 FA 56 match ammo.
The winner of the match was V. Borissov – USSR who fired an 1138. Borissov used a Russian rifle chamber for a 7.62 mm Russian round firing a 201 grain bullet and chronographed at 2556 fps by the NRA.
The following info is quoted from the April 1957 “American Rifleman” in an article entitled: ‘Frankfort Arsenal and Match Ammunition’:
“When Frankfort Arsenal was called upon to make the 300 meter ammunition for the U. S. Competitors in the 1956 Olympics, it had not regularly made match or even M1-type ammunition for about 15 years. Operations had been programmed for the production of ammunition under war conditions and many of the oldest employees with the detailed knowledge of former techniques had retired. In the circumstances, it was decided to rely on components which were best known. The ammunition, designated T275, was made up in 7.62 mm (.30) NATO caliber, the present national standard, but with the chlorate primer of FA no. 70 type, IMR 4895 powder, and M1 type bullet. One lot was loaded to approximately 2250 fps and a second lot to 2450 fps. The ammunition showed a high and uniform degree of accuracy. It was a remarkable accomplishment to manufacture such ammunition in a short time and after a long time period. “
For what it’s worth.
International 2200 fps Ammo
The Low Velocity (~2200 fps) International Match ammo had a distinguished and controversial career.
International 2200 fps ammo was developed at Frankfort Arsenal in 1925 while developing both International and Palma ammunition. Careful testing showed that 1000 yard ammo and 300 meter ammo operated best at two different mv. Both were loaded with a 172 gr, 9 degree boat tail bullet (non-cannelured) – very similar to that being developed for the 30 M1 round. (Interestingly enough the 1925 FA NM 30-06 ammo for use at the National Matches was the most accurate 30-06 NM ammo developed until 1962.) Tests showed that thousand yard ammo was best at the high (2700 fps) velocity while 300 meter ammo was most accurate at low (2200 fps) mv.
In 1925 the International team used the LV (2200 fps) ammo and lost the match being edged out by the Swiss. This was the first US loss since 1921.
In 1927 the US International team took both high velocity and low velocity ammo to the match but again used the 2200 fps ammo and lost to the Swiss. One of the team members claimed that the US lost because of the “low velocity” ammo. An interesting observation, for he shot very well in Standing and Kneeling with the 2200 fps ammo and poorly in Prone while one of his fellow team members set a new world prone record with this LV ammo. The winning Swiss ammo had a mv of 2505 fps. Tests showed that with the Swiss ammo, a ten mile-an-hour cross wind caused a deflection of 4 3/8 minutes while with the LV US ammo the same ten mile-an-hour wind caused a deflection of 4 ¾ minute deflection – not of great significance. The LV ammo increased the bore time by 0.0003 seconds – again an insignificant amount.
In 1928 and 1929 the International team again used HV ammo and both times lost to the Swiss.
In 1930 FA developed both a HV and LV load. The LV load was a 173 gr 9 degree boat tailed bullet propelled by 33.5 grains of HV #2 resulting in a IV of 2219 fps at a pressure of 27478 psi. The International team captain was given the option of which ammo to use. He chose the LV (2200 fps ammo) and the US team won with a score only one point lower than the world record. . After this the US decided not to enter any further competition until after WWII. The Argentine cup was sent to Poland the next year.
As an aside, Frank Parsons and E.O Swanson (two of the original members of the 1930 team) entered the International shoot in London in 1948 using the same well-worn, Springfield-barreled Martini rifles and left over FA 30 Intentional Match ammo that they had used 18 years before at Antwerp. . Parson’s rifle was so worn that they ended up both using Swanson’s rifle. Swanson placed 10th with a score of 1079. Top man shot for match shot 1120. This scored of 1079 topped the score of one of the shooters on the 1930 US winning team and two of the shooters on the second place 1930 Swiss team.
After WWII, major manufacturers were slow to reinstitute the manufacture of match bullets, so the Frankfort Arsenal started production of 30 M72 bullets (very similar to the old 30 M1 bullet) and that is what is loaded into the FA 56 International ammo. Later (about 1959?), Sierra developed the 168 gr Sierra MatchKing bullet for the 300 meter ammo. Since the 2200 fps velocity seemed to be the best velocity for 300 meters, this was the load selected. Army ordnance supported the International teams up until about 1967 when all army support of matches was stopped. I do not know what the present situation is.
Interestingly enough, in 1956 the Swedes were developing an International load using a 200 grain rebated boat tail bullet in the 7.62 Russian case fired at a MV of 2200 fps.

[Cosine26]

Carlos Hathcock
I have just completed reading “MARINE SNIPER” the biography Carlos Hathcock . It raises several questions in my mind. I am familiar with US Army team procedures having worked with several army rifle teams but am not familiar with USMC procedures. Perhaps someone with USMC info can answer these questions:
FIRST: It is indicated that Carlos won the Wimbledon with a 300 Winchester Magnum using a 176 grain bullet. I know that the 300 Winchester was superseding some of the older 300 H&H, 30-338 Magnum and the 308 Norma Magnum for Bull Gun use but am unfamiliar with a 176 grain match bullet in a Magnum. The closest I can equate this to this is the M72 bullet at a nominal 172 grains and I know of no one using them in the magnums at the time. The most common bullet was the 180 gr (Norma, Western, or Sierra) boat tails and some 185 gr rebated boat tails by Lapua but by 1965 many were gravitating to the 190 & 200 grain Sierra bullets with their higher ballistic coefficient. Does anyone know which 176 grain bullet he was using?
SECOND: It is indicated that on his first tour he used a 30-06 M70 Winchester Match rifle and standard M72 Match ammo with a MV of 2550 fps. The Lake City M72 NM ammo for both 65 & 66 (which had a Mean Radius {MR} of 2 inches at 600 yards) had a velocity on the box and published by the army of 2650 fps. While there is no real correlation to MR and group size, the general consensus is that MR X 3 gives a close approximation to group size. An MR of 2 inches at 600 yards would ~ = a 6 inch group at 600 yards which is practically MOA. What would be the advantage of lowering the velocity? I believe that he author mistook the stated velocity of the M118 7.62 Match for the velocity of the M72 Match.
THIRD: It is indicated that the National Match Course was sixty shots. The standard NMC in 1969 was 50 shots unless the USMC used a different NMC. By 1969 when this was addressed in the book, the SR/MR/LR targets had superseded the A/B/C targets and the possible score was 500 – 50 X not 250-50V, unless the USMC stuck with the old targets.
FOURTH: It was indicated that on his second tour in 1969 he continued to use the Winchester M70 in 30-06 with a 180 gr boat tailed bullet. He does mention the Remington in 7.62 NATO but does not mention the ammo used. I wonder what 180 gr ammo he used. The M72 NM ammo was discontinued for 1967 when the army switched to the M14 and 7.62 M118. The 1967 Nationals used left over 1966 M72 NM ammo for 30-06 Match. I understand that there was no new NM either M72 or M118 after the army withdrew support of the National Matches in October 1967. By 1969 I believe that commercial match ammo (Western Super Match, Winchester Wimbledon Cup and Remington Palma Match) had been discontinued. Does anyone know what 180 gr bullet he used? I would suspect that he probably used some left over NM ammo.

[Johnny in Texas]

I have M118 NM white box all the way into 1979 and M72 up to '68 I think I will check that to make sure. I found a can LC M72 lot 12253 '68

[Cosine26]

Hi Johnny in Texas,
I have white box LC M118 up through LC 68 MATCH but it is not head stamped "NM" . Most of the "NM" ammo I have used is head stamped "LC 62 NM" while regular Match ammo was head stamped "LC MATCH 62".

[Johnny in Texas]

I get what you mean. Yea this is USGI Match not the Camp Perry marked boxes with NM brass. You are probably right about those dates on the NM marked ammo. I thought that the NM ammo was what was issued at to all service rifle shooter at Camp Perry.

[Chris F]

Thank you for all that information Cosine26 and all. Is that you Ray? I suspect that folk are treating Henderson's writing as gospel, where there's a certain amount of "fill in the blank" or creative license that was applied. I'd seen the 2moa statement attributed to Land in his recent recollections. I wish I had thought of asking him some of these questions when he was presiding over the Nationals at Perry a few years back.

Johnny in Texas, are you able to send me a photo of those Remington Int'l Match Boxes? Better yet, would you be interested in selling a box or two?

Cosine26, I had little peeks at what WTBN did for ammo from the late 80's to the 2000's. Our host Mr Culver probably has better insight into the relevant period. Given how cobbled together the sniping efforts were in the early war, I would suspect that they were doing well to just get sufficient quantities of good 'ole M72.
Oh yeah..I collect this stuff....here's a pic;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/BlingRat/InternationalMatchCombined.jpg

[Johnny in Texas]

Here are some pics. I have 14 boxes and would part with some .

[Cosine26]

Hi Chris,
I changed jobs, moved and lost all of my military contacts so do not have any info on the later match ammo after 1969. I believe some later Match ammo was loaded with 168 SMK and some with 175 gr bullets. From then on, I went to the bolt rifle and used only handloads. i do have a box of 1930 Internation Match 30 caliber. This was loaded with the non corrosive Berdan primer. I also have a few boxes of Western 308 (not 7.62mm) loaded on contract for the government wtih 200 gr bullets (Sierra?) I relly do not know who made the bullet because this is head stamped "WCC 58". It is loaded with what I believe is non canister 4064 and is primed with the Western 8 1/2 G primer which is both corrosive and mecuric. I have several cans of M118 , some FA65 Lot (FA 5) and some LC68. I do not have the statistics on the LC68 but believe that it paralled the LC 67 in performance.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Good grief, Charlie Brown. I have now had a really neat education on match ammo. You guys know more about ammo than is normal (which is good). Thanks, guys.

Chris, you are indeed correct. Jim Land told me that Carlos' rifle was a 2 MOA rifle, and Major Land was in a position to know. I was north of those guys, but if I had known what was going on at Hill 55, I would have gone UA just to volunteer to clean their rifles. They were making history while I was tramping through mud and swattin' skeeters. I still laugh trying to visualize Jim and Carlos wrestling over that rifle. Only Marines could be that goofy in a life or death situation.

Jim

[Chris F]

I have a friend who is a fellow competitor/collector that has pursued the history of military match ammo from an academic standpoint. There's a lot of history there. The gray area's are in the transition years...when did one type of ammo cease production while another came online. ie. M118/M118SB/M852 and M852 whitebox/brownbox. He ended up writing a very nice article for the Cartridge Collecting Association on the history of military match ammo covering the 20th century. I myself was fortunate to have a friend who headed up Sniper Section at the RTE Shop during the fielding of AA11 which was unique in that it was fielded by the USMC vice Army. ...many interesting anecdotes there that would make another interesting footnote in the history.

Marine A5 Sniper, so now that you can see that I have a more than passing interest in the ammo aspect, can you tell me more about the source of Hathcock et al using "LC International Match" ammo. I as well as my friend would probably be interested in trying to run sources while they're still around to tell their stories?

[Johnny in Texas]

Chris I was very involved in HP Match shooting during that transition to M852 in white box then brown not for combat use and then M118SB that was for combat use because the M852 had not been approved yet. The M852 would not make it 1000 yrds. without keyholing. That is when M118LR was on the drawing board. None of the Guard shooters in our club shot straight M118SB they all made "Mexican Match" using the new Sierra 175 HPBT match bullet. Some of the Guard shooter were being issued Federal Match 168 HP the M118SB just had bad bullets. I used the pulled bullets for practice and I never could get them to shoot great even off the bench. The CMP sold a bunch of M118LR and I bought all I could afford. I scrounged all the ammo I could in those days. 5.00 a box for white box M118 was the going rate in early 90's at a Match.

[raymeketa]

During the 1950s, Frankford Arsenal manufactured three different Cal .30 match cartridges. National Match, Palma Match, and International Match. National Match was manufactured until 1961, the last Palma and International Match in 1956. As far as I know, none of the International Match was loaded to more than 2300 fps.

Both Remington and Winchester produced commercial International and Palma Match ammunition after Frankford Arsenal stopped production, and the AMU did likewise. It may have been one of these loadings that Hathcock used.

I have never seen or heard of a Lake City Palma or International Match loading in Cal .30. If anyone has details on such a thing I'd really be interested in hearing from them. LC produced M72 until 1968.

The T275E4 that Chris posted was modified for use in the M14 and became the XM118 MATCH in 1962. It became the M118 in 1965 and remained in production until 1982. XM852 was first loaded in 1981 and continued as the National Match standard until 1996. It was the last true National Match cartridge.

M118SB was first loaded in 1982 in response to the need for a sniper cartridge following the discontinuance of the M118 MATCH. It was replaced by the M118LR in 1995.

The USMC (and USN) was never fond of the mild National Match or SB loads and they produced their own ammunition with the 168 SMK to much higher velocities, such as the G4 at nearly 2800 fps. Their first loads with the new Sierra 175 grain MK were loaded to 2700 fps but when the Army became involved it was eventually downloaded to todays 2550 fps.

Much has been said about the "white box" ammunition but as far as I know it was no better or worse than any other box color.

Ray

[Johnny in Texas]

I refer to White box M118 to differeciat from M118 SB that is in a Brown box and was loaded with ball powder. It was a term I picked up on the range among military shooters. When Speacial Ball was all they were getting. I guess you had to be there.

[raymeketa]

Johnny

Actually, the first M118 SB was packaged in the same white box as the M118, only with a paper overlabel. It was loaded with IMR 4895 up until at least 1985 or later.

Being in the white M118 box caused many shooters to believe that SB was simply left over M118 that was re-designated. But, it was a new cartridge with a new headstamp, crimped primer, and loaded to slightly higher velocity.

In 1982, LC loaded 3 different cartridges that were packaged in the same box. M118, M118 SB, and M852. It's no wonder that some shooters were confused. Later, having three different cartridges with the M118 designation didn't help either.

I was military at one time (1950s), but didn't start shooting competitively as a civilian until the late 60s. So, I was there too. My problem is that I don't remember a lot of the details so I have to rely on the remembrances of others, such as you and Chris.

Ray

[raymeketa]

Johnny

Speaking of memories and details, maybe you can help me with this one. Anyone else feel free to chime in too.

You mentioned "Mexican Match". Everyone who shot back then knows what it was but, where did the name originate? I've heard several different versions from different shooters but no one was willing to say positively one way or the other.

Ray

[Johnny in Texas]

I always thought it was a reference to how (Being from Texas) Mexican Nationals living here or elsewhere would modify something to make it work better. Not a disparaging remark.

It's an Industry term!

Like spit and bailing wire to a Redneck. LOL!

I never saw M118 SB in anything but brown boxes. I had about 6 cans of '87 and it had some kind of ball powder.

[Cosine26]

For Johnny:
My information shows that 7.62 XM118 for the 1963 Natiional Matches was loaded with 44.1 grains of WC846 Ball Powder lot 43435.
My information further shows that M118 was standardized for the National Matches in 1964 with lot 12214. MR @ 600 yards was 1.9 inches with 240 0f the 270 shots going into a 6 inch circle at 600 yards. The ammo was fired in three different barrels-9 strings in each barrel. The load was 42.1 gr of 4895 Lot No. 44038.
In testing for the NM ammo LC fired twenty seven, 10 shot strings at 600 yardsfor record for acceptance testing. Why 27 strings? - I do not know.
Perhaps the LC 87 Match 7.62 you fired was loaded with some lot of WC846.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Marine A5 Sniper, so now that you can see that I have a more than passing interest in the ammo aspect, can you tell me more about the source of Hathcock et al using "LC International Match" ammo. I as well as my friend would probably be interested in trying to run sources while they're still around to tell their stories?

From "Marine Sniper", which I got from Maj Land. Jim is a good friend of mine (as he is with many of the forum members), and we can ask him any question you wish. He is very accessible even as Secretary of the NRA, and he is the most helpful, and busiest, guy I know.

I do not know the author's source, or accuracy, but I suspect the source was Maj. Land. from what you guys have said, and I don't doubt for a second, is that the "same ammo" wasn't used in NM's and IM's.

Jim:icon_pirat:
___________________________________________
"Land managed to add to his men's confidence and chances for success by obtaining
a large lot of match ammunition, direct from the Lake City Arsenal—the same ammo
used in national and international shooting competition. It had 173-grain, boattailed
bullets that traveled at 2,550 feet per second and would strike the
target at the same spot with every shot. A dozen strong, the classes began."

[raymeketa]

For Johnny:
My information shows that 7.62 XM118 for the 1963 Natiional Matches was loaded with 44.1 grains of WC846 Ball Powder lot 43435.
My information further shows that M118 was standardized for the National Matches in 1964 with lot 12214. MR @ 600 yards was 1.9 inches with 240 0f the 270 shots going into a 6 inch circle at 600 yards. The ammo was fired in three different barrels-9 strings in each barrel. The load was 42.1 gr of 4895 Lot No. 44038. . . .

Cosine

Johnny was speaking of the M118 SB being loaded with ball powder in 1987. As far as I know, M118 was never loaded with ball except for the '63 FA experimental mentioned.

I believe that the WC 846 1963 ammo was a one-time thing, loaded by FA for tests in the M14. LC loads for that year used IMR 4895. Don't forget, the cartridge was still an experimental (XM118) until 1966. Both FA and LC loaded it

You mentioned lot 12214. Is that a powder lot?

Ray

[raymeketa]

Cosine

PM sent.

Ray

[raymeketa]

I always thought it was a reference to how (Being from Texas) Mexican Nationals living here or elsewhere would modify something to make it work better. Not a disparaging remark.

It's an Industry term!

Like spit and bailing wire to a Redneck. LOL!

I never saw M118 SB in anything but brown boxes. I had about 6 cans of '87 and it had some kind of ball powder.

Johnny

Being from the SW USA myself, the term Mexican Match had a similar origin to me. Perfectly accepatable back then, but politically incorrect today. But, I'm too old to worry about political correctness.

Below is a a photo of the very first lot of M118 SB in the white box. Headstamp is LC 82 and it's loaded with IMR 4895. Below it is the box with the label removed.

The first M852 was packaged exactly the same way, only with it's own label.

Ray
http://i52.tinypic.com/2mp0vmp.jpg

[Johnny in Texas]

Thanks for the picture I have seen that before!

I have some LC79 that has a label with Arabic translation on the back.

[Hap Rocketto]

This is appeared in Precision Shooting Magazine a few years ago, it is some what dated but may be of interest. It has been edited slightly to meet website size requirements.

A Short History of National Match Rifle Ammunition

A rifle can be no more accurate than the ammunition with which it is loaded; therefore the search for the best ammunition is a life long pursuit for any shooter. Until recently serious service rifle shooters were more limited in choice because ammunition for the most important matches of the year, regional Excellence-In-Competition (EIC) Matches and the various team and individual matches that make up The National Matches, was issued on the line.

In 1995 changes in public law reorganized the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and the Office of the DCM. Now, no longer a part of the Department of The Army, but a public corporation, much like the Postal Service, the DCM has had to adjust. The change had its good and bad sides. On the positive side, the funding for the DCM is no longer a political football. However, the DCM has had to become a self-supporting agency and, to that end, prices for DCM services and commodities, such as ammunition, have risen accordingly.

Several factors have changed the complexion of the ammunition issue to some degree. The first is that the expense and difficulties involved in shipping ammunition to regional EIC matches caused the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) to modify match regulations to allow competitors to provided their own ammunition, either handloads, commercial loads, or National Match, at their own discretion. Secondly, the M-16, for which there is no National Match cartridge available, has become increasing popular in EIC competition because a rule revision that allows the M-16 shooter to 'roll their own' ammunition has made an accurate cartridge a reality. Finally, 7.62mm National Match M852 ammunition is now loaded with commercially available 168-grain hollow point boat tailed bullets. This makes it feasible to handload a cartridge that is both superior and cheaper than National Match ammunition. This chain of events makes it appear that National Match ammunition may become less important to a shooter chasing Distinguished in the future than it has been in the past.

Since 1907, when Section 4312 of Title 10 of The United States Code established the National Matches, there has been an ongoing search for quality service rifle ammunition. Frankford Arsenal produced the first National Match ammunition in 1908. The bullet was the 1906 uncannelured 150-grain flat-based spitzer. This bullet would be the standard for ammunition loaded through 1919.

Match ammunition for the National Matches was selected competitively from groups fired with samples sent to the government. Winchester Repeating Arms Corporation, United States Cartridge Corporation, and Frankford Arsenal were the suppliers during these years. The intent of the Army, through this process, was to both acquire an accurate cartridge while educating the manufacturers in the intricacies of mass production as they were taught how to navigate the government's paperwork labyrinth.

There were both intrinsic and economic reasons for the munitions manufacturers to attempt to vie for the contract. Along with the prestige of winning the competition for the most accurate ammunition went the award of a contract for several million rounds of ammunition. This insured continued employment for the workers and, in the case of the commercial firms, fatter dividend checks for the stockholders. During the early years there was no attempt to specially mark this ammunition. The best lot was designated for match use and shipped to the National Match site. The remaining ammunition was placed in the supply system for the use of troops in the field.

The method used to determine the quality of National Match ammunition is that of mean radius. Ten shot groups are fired from machine rested heavy barrels and the center of impact of the group is determined. From that point of reference the distance of each bullet hole is measured and then averaged. The resulting number bears no exact relationship to group diameter since that is a function of shape. However, a rule of thumb states that the group size at 600 yards will be slightly larger than the product of the mean radius and three.

For an example, in 1966 7.62mm samples had a mean radius of 1.76 inches indicating a group size of about six inches at 600 yards. This is just equal to the X ring on the present 600-yard MR target series and five inches smaller than the V ring on the old five-ring target. Each year, during the late fifties and sixties, service rifle shooters eagerly awaited The American Rifleman to read 'The Dope Bag' column containing the specifications of that year's National Match. Of great interest was the 270 round facsimile composite target that always accompanied the article and gave an excellent graphical portrayal of the ammunition's capability. In 1966 the facsimile target for the 7.62mm cartridge of lot LC12065 showed all 270 shots well within the ten ring with 242 of them in the X ring, which subtends just one minute of angle, bearing out the rule of thumb.

Changes to the ammunition began in 1919 when the Frankford Arsenal FA 70 priming compound was first used in the FA Number 26 primer. 1920 saw a change of bullet when a 170-grain flat based jacketed bullet was introduced in an attempt to reduce metal fouling the barrel of the rifle. This experimentation showed some promise so it was continued into the next year's production. This action resulted in the notorious 'Tin Can" bullet in 1921.

Townsend Whelen commanded the facility at Frankford and had developed a tinned cupro-nickel jacket that was thought to reduce metal fouling. Up to this time shooters were required to treat rifle barrels with a solution mixed from Ammonia Persulphate, Ammonia Carbonate, 28% Stronger Ammonia Water, and water. Officially it was Ordnance Department Metal Fouling Solution but more commonly it was known as "Ammonia Dope". Using it was a nasty and time consuming process that, when improperly done, would ruin a rifle barrel in just a few minutes. In an effort to reduce the metal fouling and avoid a disagreeable cleaning task, most shooters carried a small container of grease with which they coated the bullet prior to shooting. This was all well and good as the grease accomplished its purpose. For many years shooters in Great Britain have successfully used a parsimonious application of grease on the old .303 military cartridges to prevent metal fouling. Today that process has become so refined that some shooters, on both sides of the Atlantic, use just a carefully applied, prudently small, smudge of lubricant on the juncture of the neck and bullet.

Whelen's plated bullets and the cartridge cases were dissimilar metals. This resulted, over time, in the two components becoming cold soldered together. This binding increased the normal force needed to pull a bullet from 50 or 60, pounds to over 300 pounds, with some instances recorded as high as 600 pounds. Unless used sparingly and with care, the sticky grease could easily pick up debris and carry it into the rifle's chamber. Residue was inevitably left in the chamber and excessive grease build up may have been a contributing factor in causing the normal chamber pressure of about 51,000 pounds per square inch (PSI) to rise to alarming and dangerous levels of 75,000 PSI. With a clean chamber the neck of the case had enough room to expand and the bullet could be released. If the interior of the chamber were coated, and the diameter decreased, the space available for expansion was reduced allowing the pressure to build up to a level more than the rifle could handle. There are reports of bullets being found down range with parts of the neck of the case still attached.

Once the cold soldering problem was discovered warnings were published to advise competitors not to grease the bullets for fear of exacerbating the situation. However, these pleas fell on many deaf ears, probably caused by old habits and not the primitive ear protection of the day. Shooters who used the cartridges dry found that they were accurate and caused no damage. Some competitors that did not heed the warning, and used grease in excessive amounts or contaminated with grass or dirt, often found themselves with poor scores or, worse yet, an occasional wrecked rifle.

The possible danger of the high power community's use of incorrectly greased bullets caused the authorities to withdraw, and scrap, the remaining ammunition out of concern for the safety of the shooter. This was not the first time that greased bullets were considered dangerous and withdrawn from service. In 1857 Seypoy troops of the Old Indian Army mutinied when given bullets that they believed were lubricated with animal fat, the use of which would have caused them to break dietary laws or lose caste. Seventy-five years later the jury is still out as the controversy simmers about just what part, if any, grease may have played in the National Match ammunition woes of 1921.

In 1922 Frankford began loading ammunition with another new bullet. Continuing attempts to reduce metal fouling resulted in a 170 grain 6 degree boat tailed bullet that was jacketed with gilding metal to reduce metal fouling. Guilding metal is a hard alloy containing about 90% copper and 10% zinc. Its introduction solved both the metal fouling problem and served to help the boat tailed bullet maintain its stability in the bore. The switch to a boat tailed shaped projectile was a result of studies which indicated that the design was ballistically superior to a flat tailed bullet. The boat tail design allows the bullet to retain velocity longer, have less bullet drop, and deliver greater energy at long range than the flat based design. In addition the flat-based bullet required greater precision in manufacture to have a consistent concentric base-bearing surface. A concentric base-bearing surface is essential to stabilize a bullet. The boat-tailed design negated this manufacturing requirement while still providing the required concentricity. This attempt proved successful and has been continued in following years.

1924 would mark the last year that Hercules HiVel powder was used. Dupont's Improved Military Rifle (IMR) powders proved superior to the old standby and became the powder of choice. The bullet still was jacketed but the boat tail was changed to 9 degrees. The ammunition produced that year proved to be the most accurate of the .30-06 shipped by Frankford until 1962. The 1924 ammunition was also the first to bear the NM headstamp, FA NM-24.

The 1925 National Match ammunition was excellent. It marked the adoption of the M1 bullet, with a nominal weight of 172 grains and a 9-degree boat tailed shape, which is still used in M118 Special Ball. Dupont IMR 1147 powder filled the cases with the venerable FA Number 26 primer providing the spark to launch the bullet. There would be no matches held in 1926 as money was not appropriated and 1925 National Match ammunition would be used in 1927. In 1928 and 1929, ammunition would be produced, and be successful, in much the same manner.

In keeping with the concept that National Match production was to be a testing and development process for ammunition the 1930 production lot was used to test a new noncorrosive-priming compound. The insidious effects of the potassium chlorate in the reliable FA 70 priming compound meant that rifle barrels had to be scrubbed with boiling water after each shooting session or face almost immediate rusting. The staff at Frankford developed a noncorrosive primer that was to be field tested in 1931. However, in order to use it, the cartridge cases had to be Berdan primed, as opposed to the traditional boxer priming used with the FA 26 primer.

The two types of percussion primers, Boxer and Berdan, are very similar in concept but different in execution as both rely on the priming compound being placed between the firing pin and a metal anvil. When the firing pin strikes the metal shell of the primer, it pinches the priming compound between the shell and a metal anvil. The resulting friction detonates the highly volatile priming compound setting off the powder charge.

The Boxer primer, developed in the 1860s by Major Edward M. Boxer of the British Army, is manufactured as a separate unit and inserted into the cartridge case. It contains both a metal anvil and the priming compound that explodes and allows flame to pass through a single vent hole to the powder charge. This method is viewed as much safer and simpler because, as a separate component, it does not require excessive accuracy in manufacture, as does the Berdan primer.

The Berdan primer was developed in 1870 by Colonel Hiram Berdan, a United States Army Ordnance Officer. The primer that bears his name is an integral part of the cartridge case because a boss in the primer pocket of the case serves as the anvil. Two vent holes allow the flame to ignite the powder charge. Because the Berdan primer does not need an anvil it is capable of holding more priming compound that suited the needs of the new bulky noncorrosive compound.

For reasons unknown, the Berdan primer, developed in the United States, enjoyed a greater popularity in Europe and it is still used extensively there to this day while the British designed Boxer primer is the primer of choice in the United States.

The ammunition worked quite well and was even more accurate than the 1924 production run. It was subjected to a summer long test by the service teams and this proved to be fortunate. During summer training it was noticed that cases were showing evidence of excessive pressures and blown primers. The reason was believed to be the effect upon the priming compound of the unusually high temperatures at Camp Perry that year. As a result the ammunition was more carefully examined and then withdrawn from service. An alternate lot, prepared with the FA 26 primer and the headstamp FA 30, was quickly shipped to Camp Perry.

This unfortunate development delayed the general introduction a noncorrosive primer because there was hesitation to risk arming combat troops with a cartridge that could be rendered unfit by climatic conditions. Although there were some small production runs of noncorrosive ammunition for automatic weapons during World War II, it would not be until 1949 that noncorrosive primers would begin to be introduced on a regular basis. Beginning in 1953 all GI ammunition, with the exception of some lots of armor piercing and FA Match, would be noncorrosive. The last use of the corrosive FA Number 26 primer was in the FA Match of 1957.

The remainder of the pre war National Matches and regionals, held from 1931 to 1940, were fired with specially selected M1 bullets and cases, headstamped NM, using the standard powder load. National Match ammunition was ordered for 1941, using the M2 bullet, however the work was stopped within weeks of startup because production lines were needed to produce ball ammunition for more urgent military needs. For all intents and purposes production of National Match ammunition ceased after 1940 because of the United States involvement in both World War II and the Korean War and it was not resumed until 1957 when it was again produced and designated as T291.

Prior to World War II the ammunition was packaged 20 rounds to a box in four five round stripper clips. When production resumed the traditional 20 rounds of ammunition were packaged in the now familiar partitioned pasteboard box. In 1958, 30 Caliber National Match was designated as M72 and manufactured at Frankford until 1961. From 1962, until the production of National Match .30-06 ceased, the ammunition was fabricated at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.

The M1 Garand had been introduced to shooters at Camp Perry, in 1939, so it was with the M14 rifle’s debut. This new selective fire rifle, bearing a strong family resemblance to its predecessor, is chambered for the 7.62mm NATO cartridge and was adopted by the Army in 1957. It would soon be seen on the line at the National Matches and the production lines at Lake City would soon be churning out National Match ammunition to feed the new kid on the block.

The 7.62mm Match M118 cartridge was first approved for production in August of 1964 with the earliest runs produced at Frankford Arsenal. Since Frankford's closing Lake City has taken over all production, giving the ammunition its nickname of 'Elsie'. No relation to the Borden Company's 'contented cow', this homophonic simply refers to the cartridges’ head stamp, 'LC'.

Lake City Army Ammunition Plant, located 17 miles east of Kansas City, Missouri, was opened in 1941. It was one of the first government owned but contractor operated, ammunition plants to come into existence as the United States prepared for World War II. It presently covers almost 4,000 acres of land with all of the necessary buildings, ranges, and infrastructure required to produce small arms ammunition from 5.56mm to 20mm. It was briefly shut down in 1945. It was soon reopened and it has produced billions of rounds of ammunition for combat, competition, and training during its 55-year history.

Match cartridges have carried two headstamp notations in addition to the year of manufacture and the location. Some are marked 'NM' and others 'Match'. While all ammunition is manufactured to the same specifications, from time to time it was the practice to exercise additional care in the manufacture of the ammunition specifically earmarked for Camp Perry and the National Trophy Matches. These cases carry the 'NM' headstamp and are often packed in boxes that indicate that they are for use at Camp Perry. That ammunition was shipped to Camp Perry for issue on the line. The remaining stocks, head stamped 'Match', were delivered to the various military services and the DCM for use in training, service championships, other specific military needs, and EIC matches. More recently this practice has stopped and all ammunition carries a 'MATCH' headstamp.

The 1957 run of match ammunition at Frankford was boxed in a buff colored cardboard container with a red white, and blue printed label affixed to it. The label was the first use of the eagle logo superimposed upon the word match in red hollow block letters. The year and Frankford Arsenal also appear on this side. The top of the label carries the familiar "DISPOSAL OF EMPTIED CARTRIDGE CASES MUST BE MADE AS PRESCRIBED BY ARMY REGULATIONS". The obverse states that there are 20 cartridges of "CALIBER .30 MATCH” The lot number bullet weight and velocity are also noted. This box style would continue until 1962 when the now familiar white cardboard box appeared when production moved to Lake City.

The introduction of 7.62mm was heralded by a 1964 production run at Frankford using the familiar buff box design. The cartridge was designated as XM118 with a velocity of 2550 feet per second. The next year Frankford produced the ammunition with the buff box design and the cartridge's new designation of M118 while Lake City's 1965 white box design interestingly enough indicated that the contents were XM118.

M118 Match began rolling off of the production in white boxes. The year of production was noted by either having the year printed in red over the eagle logo or having the lot number, which first two numbers usually mirrored the last two of the year, stamped on the front just below M118. While this ammunition was a fine cartridge, it was impossible to stop shooters from tinkering with it to improve accuracy. As the military had the most ample supply of the ammunition the search for an extra edge started with them. For some time it was popular to take a pliers type reloading device and break the bituminous seal between the neck and the bullet in the belief that this would make the force needed to separate the bullet from the case more uniform. This was, of course, against the rules when the ammunition was being fired in an EIC or National Match.

Another tack taken by shooters was to pull the 173-grain bullet and replace it with a 168-grain hollow point boat tailed bullet. This modified ammunition proved better than the factory product and became very popular for use by military shooters in NRA matches. Like breaking the seal, replacing the bullet violated section 4-19 of the 'Rules and Regulations for National matches and Other Excellence-in-Competition (EIC) Matches' which forbids the alteration of the issued ammunition in any way. For reason lost to history this reworked ammunition became known as 'Mexican Match." This particular innovation was to influence a dramatic change in National Match ammunition.

In late 1979 and early 1980 rumors were ricocheting through the service rifle community about a new match cartridge to be issued that was a duplicate of the Mexican Match. There was a buzz of excitement at the ammunition issue points during the 1980 National Matches when the green metal cans were broken open and shooters were issued, for the first time, pasteboard boxes containing "20 CARTRIDGES 7.62 MM, PXR-6308 LOT LC-80F300S111 1980 NATIONAL MATCH BULLET 168 GRAINS VELOCITY 2550 FPS". A buff colored printed label covered the traditional white LC box. The top carried the usual disposal directions while the back side told that the contents were "SPECIAL MATCH CARTRIDGES FOR USE IN COMPETITIVE MATCH SHOOTING NOT TO BE USED IN COMBAT” The hollow pointed bullet, so accurate in competition, is forbidden, by the Geneva Convention, for combat use. To further identify the cartridge there was a cannelure that ran around the circumference of the case a short distance up from the base. There was much concern among the civilians that the shallow grooves would weaken the case and make it useless for reloading. The concern was not great enough to stop them from snatching up the gleaming bottleneck cylinders, almost before they stopped bouncing and steaming, from the dew dampened grass.

The ammunition proved very popular and was produced in 1981 as 7.62mm Match XM852. The LC boxes were still covered with a paper label but this one was in the traditional colors of red, white, and blue. However the familiar eagle had been dislodged from his perch and the word 'MATCH' was found in large hollow block letters on the back. The warning had been changed to "ATTENTION-THESE CARTRIDGES ARE FOR MARKSMAN AND COMPETITIVE SHOOTING-NOT FOR COMBAT USE-". In 1982 the ammunition was designated as M852 but still issued in a box with a paper label. By 1984 the new ammunition was packaged in its own Lake City box. The outline of a center fire cartridge, with an anachronistic round nosed bullet, faces nose down on each end flap. By 1991 the white box, American Eagle logo, and the case disposal message had passed into history, replaced by a plain brown box that carried a simple black frame on its front that enclosed the words, "20 CRTG. 7.62MM MATCH M852 NOT FOR COMBAT USE", on three lines, and a stamped lot number while the end flaps retained the round nosed cartridge motif.

In the mean time the M118 had not been forgotten. In 1983, when the M852 came out in its own LC white box M118 was relegated to a 20 round white box with a pasted over label. A black border surrounded the "7.62 MM NATO SPECIAL BALL M118" printed on the face while at the label bottom was the manufacturer, Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. A year later it could be found nestled in a new brown box. No longer the darling of the competitive shooter, it is still in the military supply system for training and combat use. The old match ammunition had served both competitive shooters and military snipers well. Still a good cartridge, it has found its niche and is destined to be around a long time.

National Match ammunition has been a part of the shooting scene for the better part of this century. For those seeking to earn the Distinguished Rifleman Badge or a Presidents Hundred brassard National Match ammunition is like the Maltese Falcon in Dashiel Hammet's famous short story of the same name, it is "the stuff of which dreams are made". Economic and political circumstances have effected its production and distribution over the years and while its primer, bullet, and powder have changed the National Match cartridge remains the standard by which competitive ammunition is measured

[Chris F]

Wow...
More pics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/BlingRat/M852-XM852labelled.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/BlingRat/M118-7.jpg

[raymeketa]

Chris

Nice boxes and photos.

In addition to the PXR 6308 ammo, there were three others, little known except to collectors. PXR 6309, PXR 6310, and PXR 6311. These were loaded with Hornady, Nosler, and Lapua bullets, respectively. These were designated for test purposes only, to determine the best bullet. (PXR 6308 was loaded with Sierra bullets and tested at the 1980 National Matches). For both real and political reasons, the Sierra bullet was selected.

Here's the Lapua box.

Ray
http://i53.tinypic.com/2i1h9c6.jpg

[Johnny in Texas]

Thank you for all great info. you all have provided. espeacially Ray, Chris and Hap Roketto this is a big part of the U.S.Army and U.S.M.C. Sniper program the best rifles need the best ammunition.

A more current question. What was the story behind the M118 LR that the CMP sold a few years back. I opened a can and the boxes contain mixed head stamps from '01, '02 and maybe '99 I would have to open a few boxes to be sure.

I just checked and one can with a lot# ending in -002 is all '99 headstamped ammo. I would have to open other crates but I remember finding mixed dates in the same 20 round boxes from the -002 lot.

[Chris F]

I recall when the CMP was selling M118LR, and there was much discussion as to why it was being surplussed, and why some boxes had mixed year headstamps. I recall that my friend who was Commander of the AMU during that period a former SOCOM Sniper speculated that the ammo had been found to be out of spec or improperly stored. I believe that the most credible explanation of the mixed headstamps was that Lake City produced brass in batches. When a lot of ammo was loaded, whatever brass was left from the previous cycle was loaded regardless of year headstamp, them the current production brass was used after the old was exhausted. That of course was all theory. An alternative theory for both situations was that ATK, the contractor running the Lake City Plant collected all the odds and ends leftover and produced ammo specifically for resale. This was supported by the quantities of M118LR that was being commercially sold in plastic bags or in brown boxes with special labeling that was similar to, but not quite issued M118LR.

Since you brought up LR, here's a pic of the box from the prototype LR. LR was unique in that it was a USMC project.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/BlingRat/M118LRProto2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/BlingRat/M118LRProto1.jpg

Did you know that that 175 Sierra MK was designed for the M118LR project? One of the major design criteria was a bullet that would remain supersonic at 1000 yards (something the 168 couldn't do out of a 24" M40A1)

[Johnny in Texas]

Chris the story I got off the firing line with Texas NG team shooters was that the 175 MK bullet was designed to function in the M14/M21 sniper rifles 20" barrel and stay supersonic. The 180 MK caused too high a pressure at the gas port on an M14 in hot weather. DOD was preparing way ahead for a Desert war. You know like in the Desert of Iraq! I tried to use 168 pushed on some M118 SB loads. AKA "MM" and it was not reliable past 900 yrds. in an M1A 20" barrel, bullets started to keyhole. FWIW

[raymeketa]

Johnny

What I've heard about the mixed headstamp M118LR is that it's ammo that did not meet specs for some reason or another. It was originally sent to a DOD demil facility such as TALON until they were forced to close. ATK was then allowed to sell the ammunition commercially and much of it was boxed as XM118LR-PD, the "PD" evidently meaning Pull Down. Some of it was so bad that they stopped selling it although I've heard that they are now selling some that is of higher quality.

Here's a box that contains 4 or 5 different headstamps. Why they chose to call it XM118LR baffles me considering all of the prior XM118 and M118 designations.

I understand that 5.56mm ammunition is sold the same way.

Ray
http://i55.tinypic.com/s5y4ip.jpg

[Chris F]

My info came from the same friend that ran Sniper Section at the PWS during the fielding of M118LR. Previously he tried to work with LC to improve the quality of the 173gr projectile, but found that the needs of the Corps was beyond the capability of the current tooling at LC. He was however successful at working with LC to improve the quality of their case which manifests in the early LR cases that gauge out straighter and more consistent that anything LC had previously put out.

[raymeketa]

. . .Since you brought up LR, here's a pic of the box from the prototype LR. LR was unique in that it was a USMC project. . .

Chris & Johnny

I managed to find a box of that USMC ammunition. I pulled bullets on a couple and found it was loaded with 44.1 grains of what appeared to be WC 750 powder, exactly as some shooters had told me it would. I chronographed some at 2763 fps out of a 24" barrel. If corrected to 78', that would put them at about 2719 fps, again almost exactly the 2700 fps other shooters told me to expect. Those old shooters certainly had good memories.

Ray

[Johnny in Texas]

I have seen the PD ammo on Gunbroker the stuff I received was like this. (see pics) I have open 2 cans only. Most is '99 but found '02 and '01 in the can I have fired. I was pleased with the accuracy @ 400 yards. but that is the farthest I have fired it.

[raymeketa]

Johnny

I posted this over on the WTB,WTS,WTT forum.

Your post brings up a whole nuther question. What does SMQ mean? I've been told by a very reliable source that it means St Marks and that the ammo is some of the Lake City rejects that we discussed on the Sniper Forum thread just a few minutes ago. Others have told me it means "Statement of Minimum Qualification" which more-or-less means it didn't meet minimum standards. Same thing I suppose but I'd sure like to find something positive about the meaning.

Ray

[Cosine26]

For raymekta
*First I did not receive your PM, please try again.
*For the 7.62 XM118 I shall have to recheck my notes. I have it under 1963 notes and it lists the ammo as lots FA 5 and FA 6: however I have about two cans of FA Match Lot 5 but it is head stamped FA 65. I shall have to recheck my data and the ammo.
*I do have some fired cases of 7.62 marked FA 63 Match but no loaded rounds.
*Lot number 12214 I have listed in my records as the lot number of LC 64 M72 NM ammo but I do not see where I have mentioned it previously.
For the 63 Match XM118 the ball powder is listed as WC846 Lot number (for powder)43435. I shall recheck for ammo Lot data)
*In the 1950's some 30M2 Ball was loaded with some form of ball powder but it caused "jugging of the chambers" in bolt rifles though it gave not problems in the M1. Investigations showed that it only occured when the target shooter in slow fire held the round verticle and tapped it to ensure tht the powder was settled close to the primer. When used in Rapid Fire, it caused no problems. All of the ammo ws recalled as I remember it and the army said "sorry". Maybe that is why the army was reluctant to use it in match ammo.
I shall recheck and get back to you.

[Cosine26]

For raymekta
The 63 dated XM118 was loaded by FA and the lots are FA5 and FA6.
* For both lots the powder is listed as Winchester-Western WC 846 Ball Powder Lot 43435
Both are loaded with the M72 bullet
*Lot 5 characteristics are listed as:
2558 fps - Pressure 41500 psi (34000 rounds) MR= 1.39” @ 300 yards. Avg Gp size 4.7”
* Lot 6 characteristics:
2540 @ 78 feet (the standard measurement) 38300 psi (217000 rounds) MR = 1.25” @ MR = 1.25” @300 yards. Avg Gp Size 4.1”.
The lots were assembled on two different days. Primer is the FA 36.
Ammo was accuracy tested in the usual heavy accuracy barrels but was limited to 300 yards which is the longest still available at FA at the time. Standard stated velocity measurement was always @ 78 feet.
I have not checked my ammo. It is in the garage and I shall have to dig it out. Hope that clears this up.
For 30 M72 MATCH ammo it was not uncommon to find two dates in one box,i.e LC62 and LC63. I do not remember ever seeing NM ammo mixed.

[raymeketa]

Cosine

I think this thread has wandered back and forth so much that we are starting to mix Cal .30 and 7.62mm at times.

You mentioned Lot number 12214 a couple of days ago and I assumed you were talking about 7.62mm. My mistake. Cal .30 Lot 12214 was the Camp Perry lot for 1964. The box should have the "Camp Perry" notation and the headstamp should be LC 64 NM.

As far as I know, all of the FA '63 M118 was loaded with ball powder. The LC '63 used IMR 4895.

I have to nit-pick a little. The Match bullet used in the T291, M72, and M118, was not called the M72. It was first used in National Match ammunition in 1924 and is more correctly referred to as the "M1 Type".

I'll see if I kept a copy of my PM to you, and I'll re-send it.

Ray

[raymeketa]

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Hap Rocketto and his post of yesterday. Over the years, I've probably read that particular article a dozen times and I learn somthing new each time. Hap has also written numerous other articles on shooting and ammunition, and without them a lot of history would have been lost. We all owe him a thank you.

I've told you this before, but I'll say it again. Thanks Hap.

Ray Meketa
AZ

[Hap Rocketto]

Ray,

Thank you for your very kind words.

It always a pleasure to 'talk' with a kindred spirit.

Regards,

Hap

[raymeketa]

One more box of Match/Sniper ammunition to show you. Some of you may recognize it.

G4 A20 Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico. M852 case, 168 gr SMK, IMR 4895. I found several full boxes in New Mexico. I was told it was dangerous - do not shoot it - bury it ! But I figured if the USMC and USN shot it in their M14s I could shoot it safely in a Remington 700. I chronographed it at a whopping 2799 fps. Maybe it was a little hot and made a gas gun rattle, but matches were won with it so it could not have been too bad.

Ray
http://i51.tinypic.com/a9oc9c.jpg

[Cosine26]

Hi Ray,
FIRST let me say that this discussion has departed from the original discussion significantly and may be worthy of a new discussion.
SECOND Let me clear up two errors in my previous entries. The FA 65 M118 Match ammo that I have is Lot FA 25 not FA 5. It is in a brown box with a white label and is marked M118, Lot FA-25, MATCH, Bullet 173 grains, Velocity 2550 fps, Frankfort Arsenal. On the reverse side is an eagle imposed on the word MATCH in red.
You are correct; I slipped a line in my notes. LC 64 NM 30 M72 ammo was lot 12214. LC M118 NM ammo was Lot 12051.
I do not mind a little nit picking. The 30 M 1 bullets was a 9 degree, cannelured, boattailed bullet. The M72 is very close but no cigar. The data sheet for the Lake City 64 NM ammo states:
”The M72 bullet is of substantially the old M1 bullet form which has proven successful.”
The DCM price list dated 1 July 1961 offers the following for sale:
“Stk/No. 1305-573-4714, Bullet, Cal.30, M72, Boattail, 173 gr, minimum order 1000…$0.058 each”
I have ordered and still have a few thousand of these bullets and the can is marked “M72 bullets” with a lot number. They are non-cannelured and came about 2500 to the can. That is where I came up with my nomenclature.
FYI
30 caliber NM ammunition for 1924/1925/1926 were loaded with specially selected cannerlured M1 bullets. (There were no National Matches in 1926 due to budget cuts.)
The 1928 Nationals were fired with a selected lot of standard 30M1 Ball much to the chagrin of the shooters. The service 30M1 ball was not nearly as accurate the previous 1925 NM ammo.
From 1929 on, all NM ammo was loaded with a non-cannelured M1 match bullet. The Nationals of 1941 were to be fired with the standard 30M2 service ammo.
The pre-war matches included a twenty shot, 1000 yard stage. All pre-war match ammo was tested at 1000 yards. FA 58 NM ammo was the last tested at 1000 yards – the later NM ammo was limited to 600 yards. I suppose because the 1000 yard stage of the NMC had been deleted.

[raymeketa]

cosine

Hmmmm. My records and notes conflict with yours re: the pre-war match bullets. They show the M1 Type (smooth) being used in '24, '25, '29, and '30. The M1 (cannelured) being used in '28, and '31 thru '40. Cartridges in my collection confirm this.

Pre war, FA and the DCM sold both cases and bullets for handloaders. Both M1 Type and M1 bullets were sold. It appears that the bullet designation was changed after 1958 and the adoption of the M72.

Ray
http://i55.tinypic.com/2j4q4jk.jpg

[Cosine26]

Ray,
Do you have a Lot number or a date for the left hand box?
On the right hand box, What is the date? I cannot read it.

[raymeketa]

There's nothing on the left hand box to indicate date. However, the box construction, color, lettering style, is nearly identical to boxes of empty match cartridge cases from 1930 that were sold to handloaders. So, I would say it's pre-war.

The M1 Type bullets are dated 5 June 1957. I also have a box of empty cases from Frankford Arsenal dated July 58. They are headstamped FA 58 MATCH. Both the bullet and case boxes have Pilot Lot numbers (FAP).

I have a box of LC empty Match cases headstamped LC 78 NM and a box of bullets with an LC 85 lot number.

Ray

[Cosine26]

Here are some pictures of the 30 M72 bullet saga.
*The first is a picture of the ordering page from a DCM pricle list dated 1963 and the bullets are listed as .30 M72.
*Following are some pictures of cans of bullets marked with the stock and part number. The can lables indicate that the bullets are for the .30 M72 and the 7.62mm M118 Match ammo.
*I have no information on the M118LR or the M858. I believe that the M858 was loaded with the 165 gr SMK and I have read that the M118 LR was loaded with a 175 gr bullet however I never used and do not have any info on the bulllet .

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/Bullet0001.jpg
From DCM price list dated 1963
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets015.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets014.jpg
The top two pictures show the M72 bullets packed in 100 round boxes
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets011.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets002.jpg
This shows the can lables with an 85 and an 88 Lot number
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets004.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets007.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets006.jpg
The above three pictures are of FA 65 Match ammo
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets003.jpg
This shows the bulk pack of the L0t 88 M72 bullets
At one step on this thread it was indicated that all Sierra Match King bullets were hollow points. The early 180 gr and 200 gr SMK's were full patch not hollow point. After the introduction of the 168 gvr International bullet the 190 gr SMK was introduced as a hollow point. Shortly after that all SMK's were hollow point.
W. J. Burns a ballitician for Winchester indicated that the better accuracy of hollow point over solids in 22 rim fire ammunition was well know. Some lots of standard velocity hollow poiint would out shoot the 22 rf Match solids.
For what it's worth.

[raymeketa]

. . . *I have no information on the M118LR or the M858. I believe that the M858 was loaded with the 165 gr SMK and I have read that the M118 LR was loaded with a 175 gr bullet however I never used and do not have any info on the bulllet . . .

The M852 was loaded with the 168 grain Sierra MK (which was originally the 168 grain International). The current M118 LR is loaded with the 175 grain Sierra MK, a bullet that was designed specifically for the M118 LR. The 168 grain SMK is not a good long-range bullet, tending to become unstable at trans-sonic velocities. The Army now calls both those bullets "Open Point" to justify their use as sniper rounds.

Ray

[Garden Valley]

The 1957 .30 Cal MATCH ammo carried a "T" designation. When it was standardized in 1958 as M72 the bullet was also designated M72. That is why the box in the right of the photo above has a Frankford Arsenal printing date of 5 June 57 and designates the bullets in the box as "M1 TYPE." Boxes of bullets dated 1958 and later designate them as "M72."

[raymeketa]

Garden Valley

The original Cal .30 Match was designated T291. It was standardized in mid 1958 as the M72. 1958 boxes can be found with either designation. The change apparantly took place beginning with Lot FA 45.

Here is one of the very first boxes of T291, Lot FA1. A pre-production inspectors box.

Ray
http://i55.tinypic.com/w720w6.jpg

[raymeketa]

. . . Boxes of bullets dated 1958 and later designate them as "M72."

Garden Valley

Do you have any boxes of bullets with the M72 designation on them? I have been looking for one. All that I have seen are like the ones's that Cosine26 showed, indicating that they are for use in either the M72 and M118.

Ray

[Garden Valley]

Sorry, no. I collected Match ammunition and standard ammunition by type for many years and when I retired I sold everything I had when my wife and I downsized.

The mid-year designation change of XM118 to M118 in 1965 is much the same situation as with the 1958 change to M72. And as I recall, 1964 was the final year Frankford made XM118 before all production was shifted to Lake City, but it was made at both locations in 1963 and 1964.

[raymeketa]

That's too bad. If you do happen to see a box, let me know.

FA made XM118 from 1962 until 1964, and M118 in 1965. '65 was the end of an era, as was '96 when the last US National Match ammunition was made at LC. Sad. ;(

Ray

[Cosine26]

Here is what I believe to be a box of FA 25 National Match Ammo. Unfortunaterly it has been repacked.
The headstamp reads "FA 25 R" I believe that the "R" indicates "rifle anneal. All of the necks are cracked after all of these years. As I understand it, "NM " was not stamped until 1929. Correct?

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/Ammo/fa25r.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets025-1.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets019.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets018.jpg
The above are pictures of the FA25 ammo.

[raymeketa]

The Match ammunition for 1925 was used again in 1927 and maybe they re=packed it for that purpose??? (There were no matches in 1926).

Also, FA made Palma Match ammunition for 1925 with the same FA 25 R headstamp. But they would have been loaded to greater overall length than the National Match. 3.40" +/-. Do the cartridges in that box measure long? Also, some of the 1925 Palma Match ammunition was used in the 1926 Palma matches.

Frankford Arsenal made a bunch of empty primed cases with the FA 25 NM headstamp to be sold thru the old DCM. That's why you find many handloaded match and hunting rounds (and fired cases) with that headstamp.

"NM" was first used in the 1924 National Match headstamp. FA 24 NM. It was used again in 1929 and from 1932 until 1940.

Ray