USMC M1903A1 Clone For CMP Games

[EdBowles]

I thinking of putting together a USMC 1903A1 sniper rifle clone for the CMP Vintage Sniper Match. I have enough 1903 parts to put together a complete rifle and Midway has the Leatherwood Hi-Lux William Malcolm 6X scope at a reasonable price. I need some info on the front ring, how its attaches to the barrel, and hand guard dimensions. Anyone have a source for this info or a list of commercial equivalents for the mounting hardware? Ed

[Liam]

Not mine, but a good-looking combo.
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u23/Liam_068/mcl-short-3.jpg

[Greg Ficklin]

I need to make one up too. I shot the test match at the Eastern Games with an M1-D. It was a blast. So to be a faithful tribute gun it should be a 1903A1 and not an A3 ?

[jgaynor]

To be accurate the scope depicted which appears to be a copy or the Winchester A5 should be used on an M1903 not an M1903A1. The Marines, according to knowledgable sources, never threw anything away. There is a picture in Senich of a Marine in New Guinea (I think) holding one of the M1903 A5 setups early in WW2.
Regards,

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Email me, Ed. I am not familiar with the Malcom scopes, but you can pick up a good used Winchester A5 in #2 mounts for around $600 and be more realistic. I know where to get the bases also. They are fun rifles to shoot, very accurate, and in my old mind, a close second only to the 1941's for looks.

Jim
jimtarleton@att.net

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

To be accurate the scope depicted which appears to be a copy or the Winchester A5 should be used on an M1903 not an M1903A1. The Marines, according to knowledgable sources, never threw anything away. There is a picture in Senich of a Marine in New Guinea (I think) holding one of the M1903 A5 setups early in WW2.
Regards,

Jim
Jim,

According to Senich, there were 40 A5 snipers in use by the Marines. I think that picture was from Guadacanal.

Jim

[jgaynor]

Jim that was the picture I was thinking of. Thanks.
I think they still had more of the A5's in inventory early in the war but i believe some were used in training. The ones in the field were probably allocated on "x" number of rifles per company.


Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

You are correct. The Marines had 887 Win A5/Lyman 5A scopes in inventory in 1941.

Jim

[EdBowles]

Sorry Guys, fell off the face of the earth for awhile. The Malcom 6X scope is more in my price range @ $260 at Midway, while the "o" and "e" blocks can be had for $12 each at (http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html). Still have a kid in college, so the collectible stuff is a ways off. Ed

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Steve Earle makes quality products, so you won't go wrong there. Good luck with your project.

Jim

[Griff Murphey]

In the 90's, my friend from shooting at Camp Bullis, 1967-1971, Col. Bill Dickman USMCR, TRIED to get me to buy his USMC 03 Sniper he had gotten away with. At the time the interest in 03's and M-1's was just beginning again and there was no vintage shooting. So just like those $59.95 Johnsons, I let it get away from me.

Bill did some sniping in WW2. As a marksman, and a pilot, he from time to time found himself working as an Air Liason officer (FAC) and sniping was his collateral duty. When I shot with him and the 4th Marine Recon Bn. snipers at Bullis he was CO of the USMCR Sniper School. Sigh.

[jgaynor]

Sorry Guys, fell off the face of the earth for awhile. The Malcom 6X scope is more in my price range @ $260 at Midway, while the "o" and "e" blocks can be had for $12 each at (http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html). Still have a kid in college, so the collectible stuff is a ways off. Ed

The straight stock will probably be easier to find than a "C" stock and more accurate historically. The CMP rules may well be loose enough to permit either stock but you may want to verify that.

Regards,

Jim

[DMark]

.... Midway has the Leatherwood Hi-Lux William Malcolm 6X scope at a reasonable price. I need some info on the front ring, how its attaches to the barrel, and hand guard dimensions. Anyone have a source for this info....
Ed,

Did you ever locate the info you were looking for?

I'm also thinking about using the Leatherwood Malcolm scope for a Marine M1903 A5 clone. I can handle all of the gunsmithing, just need the mounting data for the scope and the info about the handguard mod for the build.

Regards,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Mount the rear base on the receiver ring with the front base on 7.2" center to center (of bases). The rear base should butt up against the fixed rear sight base. That's it, folks.

Jim

[DMark]

Mount the rear base on the receiver ring with the front base on 7.2" center to center (of bases). The rear base should butt up against the fixed rear sight base. That's it, folks. Jim
Thanks Jim!

Any details or pictures of how the upper handguard is re-shaped for the forward mount?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

A very close fit, and the shaved part looks to be run under a planer.

Jim

[DMark]

A very close fit, and the shaved part looks to be run under a planer. Jim
Jim..., I'm a Visual Learner. :icon_confused:

Do you have any pictures, or links that shows how these scopes were mounted.

The second post of this thread is the only clear pic that I have ever seen of an A5 on a M1903.

Thanks Again,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

This is an example out of Senich's book. There are two things wrong with this mount as far as being an original USMC sniper rifle, but no one is going to notice (but me probably).

Jim

[DMark]

.... There are two things wrong with this mount as far as being an original USMC sniper rifle, but no one is going to notice (but me probably). Jim
OK - - - Other than the rear mount being on the receiver......?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

OK - - - Other than the rear mount being on the receiver......?

The rear base is supposed to be on the receiver.

Jim

[DMark]

The rear base is supposed to be on the receiver. Jim
So the rear scope mount on the rear sight base as in this pic is wrong? :icon_scratch:

http://i53.tinypic.com/16ad46g.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Not incorrect, as many very early match rifles and the Winchester Vera Cruz sniper rifles were built on 6" centers (similar to what we have here), but I might point out that the rifle pictured has some interesting mounts. What they discovered was that the 6" center setup left way too much scope cantilevered off the rear base and scope damage was prevalent, not to mention that 7.2" centers gives 1/4 MOA clicks (for the Win A5). You don't want those hassles. From prior to WWI on, the scopes were mounted on 7.2" centers in the manner I described. So both 6" centers and 7.2" centers are correct depending on time frame. Since you are going to be in the paper punching game, you won't regret the 7.2" centers.

I deer hunt with mine, as I like the A5 that much. Don't bend or grind your bolt, as you will discover if mounted correctly, the scope clears the bolt (barely). The scope will also move forward during recoil, and you have to learn to pull it back into battery after working the bolt. The rifle pictured has the scope in the forward position, which is why it looks more balanced.

Jim

PS
Anyone know the history of the rifle pictured?

[DMark]

Jim,

WOW, great info.

I'm looking at building one on a WWI period receiver. Reckon that means I'll need the 7.2 center points.

One last question. Which of Senich's books would you recommend as the best for info on the A5 snipers during and just after WWI?

Again, Thanks for your insight! :icon_salut:

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I know of no good book on WWI Marine snipers. All that I have read are error prone. The 5th and 6th Regiments contained a large number of snipers prior to June 1918, but Belleau Wood saw most of them decimated. They were replaced with less well trained snipers, sometimes based solely on rifle qualification. OSD was training a cadre (475) of excellent scout-snipers, but to my knowledge, not one of them ever engaged in combat.

Jim

[DMark]

I know of no good book on WWI Marine snipers....
Jim, understood.

Any Senich's book that best covers the M1903 sniper rifles?

[jgaynor]

D. Mark I would recommend:

Senichs' "The US Marine Corps Scout Sniper in WW2 and Korea" Paladin 1993 (The WW1 rifles are covered as well.)

A second choice would be:

Senich's "The Complete Book of US Sniping" Paladin 1988

USMC documents record both Winchester A5 and Lyman 5A telescopes on hand at the beginning of WW2 with a notation that they were surplus "from the last war". Obviously there were no WW1 Lyman 5A's so someone was either confused or the USMC made an interwar procurement to supplement the Winchester scopes that were on hand.

Regards,

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I agree with Mr. Gaynor.

Between the wars and after 1926, the Corps replaced damaged A5's with 5A's, since they were identical except for the Lyman rib. I have never so much as seen a picture of a Marine rifle with a 5A, but I know from documents that they did indeed use them. A large portion of those scopes were the modified A5's from WWI. I wish I had been around when they surplused them. I have heard that one man bought them all.

Jim

[DMark]

Jim and Jim, :hello:

Thanks for all the advice and information, I have a reason for all of the questions.

For a while I have had a "Rescued" Bubba-gunsmithed M1903. The hacked up wood (once a nice straight grain, fingergroove stock) was discarded long ago. All of the USGI metal came with the rifle (some in a box) to include a receiver with a SN in the 820xxx range, a complete J6 bolt, and a 2-31 dated replacement SA barrel. Its a mix-match, but at least its all SA. There is little to no finish on the metal, reckon Bubba took the steelwool to it going for the stainless look. It fired 2 to 2.5 inch groups with LC M2 ball before I took it down to its "less-wood" state. I did away with the Bubba wood in order to make it easier to transport due to my many Army moves - - - and to keep it from being embarrassed among my other M1903s. I had a plan to find a USGI stock for it, but other worldwide weapon carrying events got it the way and took up my time and attention. Any project for this rifle would have to wait.

Besides..., I only gave $100 for the poor thing. :eusa_dance:

Now that I'm no longer humping a M4 and 270 rounds of 5.56mm, I can now do something with this mass of M1903 steel. While a 8X Unertl scoped 03 would be very nice, just like the OP I also have two just about to finish college, therefore the Leatherwood clone of the A5 scope appears to me. If I hadn't found this thread, I would have never known that the A5 had "gone-to-war" and was an option to build this project 03 into something.

Standby for what I am sure will be even more questions.

Best Regards,

Mark

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I wish you great luck on your project. I built a similar rifle, and it is a hoot to shoot. You will love that A5. I will help you any way I can.

Where were you doing your humping? I carried that many rounds in clips (14 clips, 19 rounds each). I was always concerned I would die because I ran out of ammo. I didn't run out of ammo.

Semper Fi,
Jim
Cpl.
USMC 69-72
RVN 70-71

[jgaynor]

D. Mark,

Here are a couple of sites that may be helpful:

http://unertl.alexweb.net/for_sale.htm

http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html

Regards,

Jim (the other one):)

[DMark]

Jim (jgaynor),

Thanks for the links. A couple of those A5s for sale look interesting.

Jim (Marine A5 Sniper),

Did alot of humping in 30 years, both in Central America & the Middle East. We use to call them Combat Deployments, but I was informed just before I retired that I was now taking part in Overseas Contingency Operations.

Also, I found a great way to fix that having enough ammo deal was to always travel with my buddies with ammo - - - the 82 or 101 Airborne. :icon_wink:

Expect that I'll get hot on this project in a couple of months. Currently dealing with a couple of 1911s that my gunsmith is doing his VooDoo over.

Appreciate all the help!

Later,

Mark

[GillaFunk]

I was going to pick up an M1 Carbine or scope my existing USMC marked A1 mk I, but now...after seeing how cool these sniper versions look, I'll have to somehow find a pre-drilled or sporterized 1903 and convert it with a proper stock and new barel.

Any tips on where to find a suitable receiver? CMP forums maybe?

[Saber6]

I thinking of putting together a USMC 1903A1 sniper rifle clone for the CMP Vintage Sniper Match. I have enough 1903 parts to put together a complete rifle and Midway has the Leatherwood Hi-Lux William Malcolm 6X scope at a reasonable price. I need some info on the front ring, how its attaches to the barrel, and hand guard dimensions. Anyone have a source for this info or a list of commercial equivalents for the mounting hardware? Ed

Leatherwood / Hi-Lux is showcasing an 8x USMC Sniper that you may find interesting. Here is a blog that has some pictures/advertisement about it from Iron Sight Inc: http://ironsightinc.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/leatherwood-hi-lux-optics-malcolm-usmc-sniper/

[EdBowles]

Thanks for the heads up, I been watching the scope's development progress. But, I have gone a whole different route, putting together a 1903A4 clone with a recovered drill receiver and Weaver K2.5 scope. Still have my 1903 parts kit and am patiently waiting. Ed