rare dates on RIA and SA bayonets

[hillbillyricky]

does ayone have production numbers for RIA and SA bayonets ?? are their certain dates that are worth more??

[Dan Shapiro]

Not sure about total production numbers for SA and RIA, they must exist somewhere. The bayonets were not serial numbered until 1906. There was little need to produce any immediately after WWI. According to Canfield the latest SA dated blade is 1922. The latest RIA 1919. Here are the contract numbers (1941-42) for the M1905 in early WWII:

UFH - 440,336
Utica - 200,000
Wilde - 60,000
AFH - 200,000
PAL - 200,000
Oneida - 100,000

As to value/date - my own WAG would be the early ones - un-serial numbered.

[5MadFarmers]

Dan, I'm going to disagree. The early, unserialed ones, are pretty common over all as they pounded them out those years. Serialed SA bayonets from 1906 run somewhere between 191K and 193K. Almost 200K bayonets and that doesn't count the unserialed ones.

RIA hit close to 90K on the serialed 1906 dated ones.

Most collectable will be early (bright with blue strip near hilt) and one of the lower produced years. The bayonets themselves aren't really the valuable bit - it's the scabbard. Bayonets are common whereas scabbards - not so much.

1913-1916 are the "rare" point.

Here is the deal. I provide the numbers and if you can hit my gaps you send me a picture of the serial and year. That way I have proof of the number tightening.

================================================== ============================
Springfield
================================================== ============================

1906: 848-191848
1907: 193367-241238
1908: 243450-356683
1909: 361603-432574
1910: 435784-466305
1911: 474325-500681
1912: 514458-546577
1913: 552927-582544
1914: 585087-608876
1915: 612212-631695
1916: 636229-648575
1917: 680384-758820
1918: 779916-1040319
1919: 1064286-1124796
1920: 1128795-1166024
1921: 1180376-1187249
1922: 1193795

================================================== ============================
Rock Island
================================================== ============================

1906: 82605
1907: 90687-116110
1908: 120818-138171
1909: 139458-160668
1910: 172896-182146
1911: 196333-216900
1912: 218451-229323
1913: 239730-241258
1914:
1915:
1916:
1917: 253700-302413
1918: 303670-416888
1919: 390139-423496

[Dan Shapiro]

Learn something new every day. I've never seen an un-serialized M1905.

[Doug Ford]

I have a 1905 marked 1918 that sombody turned into a boot knife! Anyways, serial number is 1029720

[5MadFarmers]

Learn something new every day. I've never seen an un-serialized M1905.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270696976027

[Tom in N.J.]

S.A. M1905 bayonets dated 1922 are super scarce... I've only seen one in over fifty years. Bright blade M1905 with the experimental leather covered aluminum scabbards are also scarce, I've seen two. I have one of those..

[5MadFarmers]

Very nice bayonet. The handles retain their ridges.

[GWS]

Dan Shapiro
Learn something new every day. I've never seen an un-serialized M1905

Here you go Dan:icon_salut: As I understand it RIA did not serialize in 1906 only, S.A. did serialize in 1906 thru the end of production (1922?).

[GWS]

Bright blade M1905 with the experimental leather covered aluminum scabbards are also scarce, I've seen two. I have one of those..

And now you've seen 3 Tom:1948::eusa_dance: :

[GWS]

Here is the deal. I provide the numbers and if you can hit my gaps you send me a picture of the serial and year. That way I have proof of the number tightening.

Here you are 5MadFarmers:

[Dan Shapiro]

Cool! Thanks for posting!

[5MadFarmers]

Here you are 5MadFarmers:

Hey! Thanks. I kind of suck at tracking them but time is on my side. Thank you very much.

[Tom in N.J.]

:icon_pirat:
And now you've seen 3 Tom:1948::eusa_dance: : I've seen (photos counted in) two sets, and a total of three scabbards....:icon_pirat:

[dave]

Here you go Dan:icon_salut: As I understand it RIA did not serialize in 1906 only, S.A. did serialize in 1906 thru the end of production (1922?).

I also have a RIA no-serial like the one pictured in above post.

[edpm3]

Can't get a picture right now, but I have an RIA dated 1913, SN 237925 and an SA dated 1913 SN 547889. I can send a photo when I get a chance, but not right away.

[ihc53]

Picked this 1905 SA serial no. 37222 a few years ago. Blade looked as if someone wire brushed it, so it was far from collectible.
I think I gave $50 bucks. Had it reparked and replaced the grips (it had none). The scabbard came with it as well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ihc53/M1905%20Bayonet/DSCN2205.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ihc53/M1905%20Bayonet/DSCN2206.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ihc53/M1905%20Bayonet/DSCN2207.jpg

[Doug Douglass]

I have a 1906 SA bright blade #4139 in a RIA 1907 Krag hanger scabbard which is the earliest I have ever heard of.

[mike2325]

I got this knife after my grandfather passed away. I am trying to get info and value of this knife set.

[Johnny in Texas]

SA 1906 polished with odd scabbard

[Fred Pillot]

my 1912 clip point

[RCS]

Here are photos of a SA 1913 bayonet9572957395749575

[5MadFarmers]

Can't get a picture right now, but I have an RIA dated 1913, SN 237925 and an SA dated 1913 SN 547889. I can send a photo when I get a chance, but not right away.

Pics would be good as that's a border mover. Thank you all for helping. I've processed the unprocessed ones I have. Updated table:

================================================== ============================
Springfield
================================================== ============================
1906: 848-191848
1907: 193367-241238
1908: 243450-356683
1909: 361603-432574
1910: 435784-466305
1911: 474325-500681
1912: 510138-546577
1913: 550125-582544
1914: 585087-608876
1915: 612212-631695
1916: 636229-648575
1917: 680384-758820
1918: 779916-1040319
1919: 1064286-1124796
1920: 1128795-1166024
1921: 1180376-1187249
1922: 1193795

================================================== ============================
Rock Island
================================================== ============================
1906: 82605
1907: 90687-117425
1908: 120818-138171
1909: 139458-160668
1910: 172896-189880
1911: 196333-216900
1912: 218451-233263
1913: 235734-241258
1914:
1915:
1916:
1917: 253700-302413
1918: 303670-418103
1919: 390139-428246

That overlap in 1918/1919 RIA is real as it's based on pictures of the dates and serials.

Mind you I'm not really a bayonet collector. I have production reports so I want to compare those against known example ranges. I did that once already and it didn't come out. Even accounting for the fact that they made bayonets in spare parts format. So I'm going to slowly tighten up those ranges. Given it's not the main work I do I'm suckingly inconsistent on doing it. In a week or two I'll post the ranges I have for the 1905[1] hospital corps knives and the 1909 and 1910 bolos.

[1] I'm aware that examples exist dated 1904 but the original blue print clearly states they're model of 1905.

[noslack327]

I have RIA 1910 # 177786 exc condition.

[Rick the Librarian]

Here's mine - a 1908 SA, 1910 SA and a 1907 RIA.

http://www.fototime.com./26A76C1DB966659/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com./CC5273A4BB0A3CD/standard.jpg

[Tom Doniphon]

Revise your Springfield 1921 numbers. I have an SA 1921 dated bayonet with serial number 1189328. However, it has been modified to an M1.

[Rick the Librarian]

5Madfarmers:

I had (but sold) an SA 1913 - #562887. I don't have a "post-able" picture, but I can get one, if needed.

[EricR]

1911 SA SN497904 and 1917 RIA SN258698
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/ewr0733/CIMG3998.jpg?t=1310827599
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/ewr0733/CIMG3997.jpg?t=1310826481
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/ewr0733/CIMG3996.jpg?t=1310826507
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/ewr0733/CIMG3994.jpg?t=1310826532
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh140/ewr0733/CIMG3993.jpg?t=1310826560

[Col. Colt]

Not a range changer, but I'll give you a stat on one I have personal knowledge of, anyway. RIA 1917, 284209 - bright blade with almost smooth wood grips, no scabbard. CC

[SKIPH]

Just for fun, checked out my M1905's. I believe I have a range changer. I have a near mint RIA 1908 s/n 120726 it's in a near mint early M1905 "short" throat scabbard dtd 1906 RIA. Pulled out the bayonet to double check, it's legit. My seven others fit into the ranges for their appropriate years. I'm sorry, but do not have a functioning camera to show proof.

[Col. Colt]

At what point (date or serial number) did the RIA (and SA) bayonets start getting blued instead of the "bright blade"? How about the switch to parkerized?

[Tom Doniphon]

Springfield switched to the blue finish around mid 1917, probably around s/n 700,000. They started to parkerize the blades in late 1918.

[5MadFarmers]

I'm glad Tom answered that as my answer to both questions would have been: "I have no idea." I really am not a bayonet collector. The point of this exercise has been to eventually see how the "observed numbers" compare to the production ones. Given people were wondering what the rare dates are, and I had the table, I figured I'd post what I have. As noted 1917 witnessed blued bayonets and there are other variations so what is "rare" and what isn't needs to take into consideration aspects other than year. At that point you've well, and easily, exceeded my knowledge on these so you'd be better served by others answering as I simply do not know. I'll also reiterate that I kind of suck at tracking them and that was driven home by how easily I was able to tighten the ranges 3 times in the last week off eBay alone. That doesn't even consider what you guys have added so thanks.

This might be useful. Updated for information provided. If I missed one please let me know. Let's remember that 1906 had undated ones and that'll invalidate the side totals - the grand total is of numbered ones alone.

http://5madfarmers.com/om19/bayo_jul-20-2011.png

[thorin6]

I have a 1918 M1905 bayonet, SA with SN 1041323 which is a bit higher than the number in your column for 1918. Its been nickeled for parade or ceremonial use.

[Larry G.]

I looked at my SA and RIA bayonets and found a SA 1917 cut down with a clip point with serial number 763581 that will raise the high number.

email sent also.

[edpm3]

Here's the 1913 SA:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/edpm3/IMG_0545.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o265/edpm3/IMG_0544.jpg

[dryheat]

Hi, here is one that may not pertain to the thread but since it's an RIA 1913 I thought I'd drop it by. This is a chromed parade bayo I just picked last week. I know nothing aboout bayonets, although this thread is very interesting and just the kind of thing I like. The numbers are:241615 stamped over UFH. It's a Bowie style cut down.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/jerryjeff/parade%20bayo/byo2.jpg

Photo won't stay put.

[Dick Hosmer]

It's Union Fork & Hoe, isn't it? In any event it extends 5MF's chart for 1913 at RIA.

My only 1905 (which is in a 1910 scabbard) is a very nice bright blade/blue line SA 1913, in the 577xxx range - no new ground broken there.

[dryheat]

The reason I am unsure about the "pedigree" of my bayonet is that is is marked RIA on one side and UFH on the other. The number does seem to extend the list of RIA 1913's.

[Bayonetman]

RIA was the original maker in 1913 and serial numbered it. Union Fork and Hoe was the company that shortened the blade from 16 inches to 10 inches in 1943-45.

[dryheat]

The weird part is,if you look at the picture I posted you sure can make a case for the number being stamped OVER the UFH marking. I sure looks that way to me but that doesn't seem to make sense.

[sdkrag]

5MF-
I have Springfield dated 1916, serial number 633747. RIA 1918, serial number 422133.

[dave]

I have a un-dated RIA with what I believe is an alum scabbard. It is stamped RIA 1906 E.E.B. The throat part that can be seen is a dull gray and is metal. Unfortunitly the hanger is broke off. Bayo is excellent and original finish.

[Bill D]

I have a un-dated RIA with what I believe is an alum scabbard. It is stamped RIA 1906 E.E.B. The throat part that can be seen is a dull gray and is metal. Unfortunitly the hanger is broke off. Bayo is excellent and original finish.

In Gary Cunningham's book, "American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century, two different models of 1906 scabbard used aluminum. In what Cunningham describes as the scabbard, Model of 1905, 2nd type, he says ". . . .an aluminum insert covers the wood in the aperture." He goes on to describe a "3rd type - experimental" in which he says ". . . .the wood body was replaced with one of drawn aluminum."

Is yours complete with the leather cover?

Bill

[UBNext]

I have an RIA 1906 with no serial in a RIA (HEK)1907 scabbord. Any one know anything about these or interested in it? I will try and post pics later. In great shape very little rust, I think maybe release is missing.

[Bayonetman]

In Gary Cunningham's book, "American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century, two different models of 1906 scabbard used aluminum. In what Cunningham describes as the scabbard, Model of 1905, 2nd type, he says ". . . .an aluminum insert covers the wood in the aperture." He goes on to describe a "3rd type - experimental" in which he says ". . . .the wood body was replaced with one of drawn aluminum."

Is yours complete with the leather cover?

Bill

I have more information and photos on Bayonet Points 43 - http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_43.htm

[cnw1329]

I have an S A 1914. #585123

[devildog]

Got an09 SA bayonet in the 367xxx range and an 05 canvas scabbard....I can find no markings on it to ID maker and am reluctant to field strip the canvas off it...Is it marked somehow? I am unable to figger out how to send photos and hope someone here can help.
Thanks.

Semper Fi devildog

[Bayonet]

Got an09 SA bayonet in the 367xxx range and an 05 canvas scabbard....I can find no markings on it to ID maker and am reluctant to field strip the canvas off it...Is it marked somehow? I am unable to figger out how to send photos and hope someone here can help.
Thanks.

Semper Fi devildog

The canvas scabbard is the Model 1910. Most were made by Rock Island and were marked R.I.A. and the date on the leather tip. If there is much wear to the tip, the markings may be obscured.

For more information, see: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_43.htm

[devildog]

Thanks for the help, Bayonet...

No markings or anything stamped on the leather tip and no drain grommet on tip. So I don't think it's a 1940 replacement scabbard. Could ya give me a ballpark figure on what it is worth? The condition is very good on both bayonet and scabbard. Thanks.

Semper Fi ! devildog