Hathcock's Kills

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I was reading some recently unclassified military documents and came across Hathcock's kill estimates, which were the usual 93 confirmed kills with ... get this ... "in excess of 300 unconfirmed kills". This is the first time I had seen the unconfirmed estimate in a military document. Amazing. Simply amazing.

Of the 600 marine snipers Hathcock trained, only one was killed in combat.

Jim

[plastrr385]

WOW thats amazing both in the unconfirmed and training!

[Art]

With all due respect to Hathcock, who I am certain killed many more than 93 VC/NVA fighters, anything that was "unconfirmed" in Viet Nam especially or any other war in general is not to be taken seriously.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Not so fast, Art. They discussed the unconfirmed kills to some degree. For example, the company of VC that Cpl. Burke and Hathcock held at bay for over two days were all unconfirmed kills, although it was estimated Hathcock killed 60-75 of them. The reason given for considering them all unconfirmed kills was that on the last day Burke called in for an artillery barrage. The Marines did not want to take the time to examine 150 bodies for bullet holes versus shrapnel holes for something not considered important at the time. If just those kills were counted, he would easily be the most successful US sniper of all time. Another reason was that Hathcock often operated alone on assigned missions, such as the killing of the general after a three day crawl across a field in enemy territory (considered unconfirmed in the count). Even when other witnesses were present, like then Capt. Jim Land as a witness to the killing of Apache and her bodyguard, the kills were considered unconfirmed because no one examined or retrieved the bodies (Hathcock shot her twice to be certain she was dead). His 93 confirmed kills were taken from AAR's after the war. During his first tour, it was estimated that he had three kills per day in the field; but at that time, he was forbidden to keep track of his kills, as were all Marine snipers. Being stationed at Hill 55 (Indian Country/Elephant Valley, etc), there was no shortage of targets.

Not only was Hathcock incredibly brave, but he was also one hell of a shot, being a Distinguished Shooter, Wimbledon winner, etc.. I don't doubt the estimates one bit. To top it off, Hathcosk liked his job, and made no bones about it. He was a Marine's Marine who did his job exceptionally well.

Jim

[Scott Wilson]

I believe that the standard for a confirmed kill was to have a witness or two or be able to walk out and put your boot on the body. I imagine that there were many instances where neither was feasable. Think of all of the nice shots that you have made over a lifetime that no one was there to see.

[Art]

I didn't say Hathcock wasn't incredibly brave or that he didn't kill more than 93 enemy soldiers, he did I'm sure. Unconfirmed means just that, unconfirmed. That's why fighter pilots don't get to claim "probables" as kills which would inflate their totals as well.

I think Bong and McGuire probably both shot down more than 40 Japanese aircraft too.

I'm also sure that if those Soviet snipers in WW II got credit for killing privates (they didn't) their scores would have been higher as well.

[Litt'le Lee]

so you are turning the discussion to another subject when you are faced with the truth,,there is no doubt to the claims of White Feather as he had no reason to LIE,as you put forth !!!

[Art]

so you are turning the discussion to another subject when you are faced with the truth,,there is no doubt to the claims of White Feather as he had no reason to LIE,as you put forth !!!

Excuse me. If you think I'm accusing Hathcock of lying I'm not. There are "doubts" as to the unconfirmed claims of anyone and the possibility that Hathcock may have been mistaken about something dosen't make him a liar. An unconfirmed kill is just that, unconfirmed.

If you're going to accuse me of something I would really appreciate it if you got it right.

[m1nut]

I think the fact that only one sniper he has trained out of 600 actually died in combat is very impressive in itself. Inless that is unconfirmed and then well....

[Art]

I think the fact that only one sniper he has trained out of 600 actually died in combat is very impressive in itself. Inless that is unconfirmed and then well....

I'm pretty sure that number is confirmed

[Griff Murphey]

Cpl. Burke killed an awful lot of "hamburgers" (Hathcock's term) in that night battle under the light of artillery flares, with an ordinary iron-sighted M-14 he carried as Hathcock's spotter and backup man. Maybe more than the big man himself.

As my old ROTC sergeants ALL used to say, ".... there are no autopsies on the battlefield..."* Now, post Pat Tillman; may-BE.... then, nope.

(* I think they were telling us future 2LTs to be careful, you know what I mean...)

[sgm11z]

When I was a kid I had the opportunity to meet (then CPL) Hathcock when he was on a range detail and I was one of the Marine Brats hanging around trying to get a chance to shoot with the adults. I remember that he was nice to us and I still have a WW2 poncho that he found in an ambulance and gave to me.
Moving along, when I went to 2MARDIV's LE Sniper School I again got a chance to talk with him and also to get him to sign a copy of his book, etc. I do remember that he was very retiring in the stories of his deeds and a genuinely humble man in every respect to include the pain he lived with due to his burns.
No one knows for sure how many "kills" he had and like many contemporary "heroes" the truth of the story will probably never be known but Carlos was a real Marine's Marine and no matter how many kills he had confirmed certainly earned his stripes in the sniper community!

[dave]

Sorry to turn the thread---but whats the story on Apache? who was she? Sounds interesting!

[Dave in NGA]

IIRC Apache was a female NVA/VC who specialized in capturing US GI's and slowly torturing them at night outside the wire so that their cries would be heard by their comrades. It was pure Psych warfare and the mutilated bodies of the captured troops were left with their genitals removed and stuffed in their mouths. Pretty grim stuff.

[Guamsst]

It's not a matter of lying. If you shoot and see a guy drop he may or may not have been killed. You don't always know. Anyone ever shoot at a can or something and see it fall only to find out the wind blew it down? (Not to say the wind blew any VC or NVA down) As stated earlier, they weren't allowed to track kills at first. Sometimes they didn't have witnesses or the oppurtunity to confirm.

300 is a very large number to try to confirm after the fact. Could be accurate, could be lower, could be higher. The point is simply that he probably shot allot more people than he was given credit for.

I read a great book about Air Cav a long time ago. In the accounts, chopper pilots noted that after about 170 kills pilots quit counting kills. No one seemed to know why or how 170 got to be the magic number. I suspect Hathcock fell into this too. When you shoot enough people, confirming the kill may not seem as important as surviving the war.

[RED]

My best friend (JWW) from the Navy had a "probable" kill on a MIG 21. He and his flight leader both saw a blue parachute and a crash site. Not a kill? There is no doubt in my ex military mind that he shot the MIG and the pilot ejected but it was never recognized as a "kill." When you are involved in what we called a "fur ball" (others call it a 'cluster f--- ) everybody has a different view.

So what? We weren't in it for the glory. My friend knew what he did and that was enough for him. Later, he landed a F-4J on the boat with his RIO unconsious in the back seat. The plane had been shot up when a AAA shell injured the RIO and damaged the throttle quadrant. JWW had plastic from the console imbedde in his forearm. He refused treatment because he thought the Flight surgeon would ground him and never received a Purple Heart or any other reward/recognition for doing his job.

Gunny Hathcock did much the same and as far as I know never, sought any personal reward for doing his job.

[Litt'le Lee]

to a private Dr. to have his disease treated to stay in the Corps longer