Question on 1941 Marine sniper [Archive] - Jouster2 Shooting Forums

Mickey Christian

04-03-2011, 09:00

Were all the 1941 sniper rifles SA? Was there a certain ser. no. range?
Was the 1941 the only distinctly "Marine" sniper?
I am building a faux 1941 as I can gather the knowledge and parts to do so.
Unfortunately(?) what I have is a d&t'ed RIA receiver to use for my project. Since it is a faux '41 that should be "sniper match legal", if not correct.
I have 2 barrels to choose from for this project, an NOS HS 03 barrel and an 11-42 SA that looks unfired but with a deep recess on the crown.
Since the '41 requires d&t of the barrel which one would you all recommend to d&t? I also have a couple of bolts to choose from, but what would be the expected bolt for a '41?
Thanks for your help and info.
Regards,
Mickey

pmclaine

04-03-2011, 09:26

My understanding is they were NM conditioned rifles. Marine A5 may have a specific serial number range but they were high number SA receivers. Barrel dates were from the 30's. The bolts were NS with rifle serial number electro penciled on the body.

Regards the barrel to tap, the HS 03 barrels are still available for sale (for some good money), would the 11-42 SA barrel have value to a collector as they are more scarce? You are building a faux sniper so the "correctness" of either is of less concern than shooting ability. Will the crown defect affect your groups? Werent there some QC issues concerning the SA 03 barrels early in the war? Arent the HS barrels supposed to be good shooters?

My dream rifle - I wish you luck with your build. Have you found a Unertl? What scope are you using?

Mickey Christian

04-03-2011, 11:51

Phil,
Check your PM's, you have two from me.
I did think that HS barrels were well regarded for accuracy. I did not know about SA quality issues. The SA crown looks even, just deep. I can't get an exact reading on the MW gage though.
I have decided to go with the Leatherwood Malcome 6x scope on my project.
The bolt I am thinking of using has a NS on top of the handle root with the Greek (?) 4 digit number etched in the same spot.
I have a nice "C" stock on the way for it.
Since my receiver is RIA and I recently received a NOS blued RIA lower band I decided to put it on.
I have a beat up RIA bayo band I am going to try to re-do and nitre blue...we'll have to see.
The trigger guard and floor plate I believe to both be NOS, got a NOS in the grease butt swivel, and the course checkered milled buttplate w/door I just picked up.
A lot is comming together, but it still will only be a faux sniper. Thankfully most of the parts have been reasonable so total cost is a little high, but affordable.
Mickey

pmclaine

04-03-2011, 02:04

Sounds great. I think the leatherwood would be more representative of a WWI Marine sniper and your RIA receiver would go with that period. That would call for a GG straight stock though and you would lose the shootability of your C stock.

If I built my focus would be more concerned with shootability than historical accuracy but I would want it to somewhat mimic the original - say from a distance of 3 yards it would look legit. The coarse plate is very desireable but I would not be concerned if my front band had a U or R stamped on it and the receiver was something else. My local shop has a 12x Unertl in the $600 range I thought of buying as a start to what you are well on the way to completing. The pope rib would need to be repaired and I would be looking at an add $400 to get it shootable. That said it seems like you have some good parts sources and good luck - this project must be fun to hunt for.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle

04-03-2011, 03:01

The 1941 A1 snipers were made from existing team NM (all SA) rifles in stock plus others built by PD to NM specs. They were indeed all HN's.

jt

Jason60chev

06-24-2011, 03:19

Hello....I am building an M1941 Sniper clone, too...from parts. I bought a 1932 serial numbered SA complete action on Ebay and have 2 1932 dated NM barrels at home (Always wondered what I would do with them). I think that the MW is good enough on those for this project. I also have a couple of NS marked bolts to choose from. A NM coarse buttplate and a couple of "C" stocks (both pre-war and Keystone), but haven;t decided which I will use as the handguard will need to be shaved. I bought a vintage Lyman 8X Targetspot scope on GB, but am still searching for a Unertl or a Lyman 5A. I considered the Leatherwood, myself. Once I get everything together, I will have my gunsmith attach the barrel and check headspace as well as drill/tap for the scope bases. YES!...it is a fun project!

1903shooter

06-24-2011, 05:48

To be legal in the vintage sniper match the rifle must have a "C" stock and an external adjustable scope of 6x or 8x. I would not use the Malcom as the rear micrometer is not very precise. I would hold off until I found a Unertl 8X or maybe a Lyman Junior Target in 8X, if I wanted the rifle to shoot as good as possible. The H.S. barrels are very nice barrels go with it. USMC assembled rifles had N.S. or J1 marked bolts. The earlier Team rifles that were converted could have just about anything. If you want it to be a real accurate shooter, have a match chamber reamed with a short, tight throat for match bullets. Coarse milled steel butt plates are a real plus and can improve your scores as they don't slide around on the shoudler like the smooth or fine checkered butt plates do. I have quite a few heavy checkered butt plates but they are very expensive. You might find one on ebay for a cheaper price.

jgaynor

06-24-2011, 09:56

Would not a WW1 USMC Sniper rifle (w/ Winchester A5) have been equipped with a straight stock?

Regards,
Jim

1903shooter

06-24-2011, 04:26

Jim, That's an excellent point!!! Here's what the CMP on-line rule book has;

United States:
.30-06 cal. 1941A1 Springfield (C stock,
Standard 1903 sights with Unertl type
scope on Unertl type mounts and bases)

BUT! It lists the 'Legal' scopes as;

Winchester A5, Winchester B5, Winchester
B3
USMC original issue: Unertl 8X
Sniper Telescope
Non-issue scopes: Unertl, Lyman or
Fekker 6X or 8X scope with up to a
1.5” objective; Leatherwood Malcolm
3X or 6X
Note: All scopes must have external
adjustment and no recoil spring.

So, since the Winchester, Lyman and Fecker scopes are allowable why wouldn't a Finger Grooved stock be?? Especially since a F.G. stock is clearly pictured in Senich's book Marine Corp Sniper on page 84. The picture was taken on Okinawa in May 1945.

Would not a WW1 USMC Sniper rifle (w/ Winchester A5) have been equipped with a straight stock?

Regards,
Jim

jgaynor

06-25-2011, 10:45

!903Shooter,
You caught me :) It was a rhetorical question. :)

Regards,
Jim

Greg Ficklin

06-26-2011, 08:33

I built a tribute Marine sniper for the Eastern Games and National matches. Recently the CMP shooter news email had a pic of my rifle used at the Eastern Games. I used a former drill rifle as not to drill into a more collectable unmolested receiver. The best barrel to use would be a new production Criterion available from the CMP. It is my opinion that these are as good or better than any of the best vintage GI barrels. Drilling one of these is also not a sin. I used a new production CMP "C" stock finished with Chestnut ridge military stain. The correct "O" and "E" bases I found at Steve Earl products for $35. He sells online and is a good guy. I jumped on a 6X Unertl 1.25 inch scope for $525. My other choice would be a Lyman Jr in 8X. These are great scopes for this too and can be found more easily. A Lyman Jr in great shape will fetch $400, add another $75 if it comes with the box.
There was a representative of Hi-Lux (makers of the current Malcom) at the Eastern Games. They have plans to market a reproduction of the 8X Unertl for a retail price around $600 in the near future.
My tribute sniper performed as expected. It was capable of cleaning the entire course of fire, but I came away with a 93 at 300, and a 96 at 600 yards respectfully. I even beat Dave Emery ( the originator of VSM match and Hornady ballistician) by one point using Hornady A-max Garand match ammo. This is a hell of a game with the right equipment. The Tribute Marine snipers are the best there is for it.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle

06-28-2011, 04:43

Excellent shooting, my friend.

jt

Greg Ficklin

07-02-2011, 08:35

Thanks. We all had a ball in this match. It ran really well because the Butner targets are are electric and can be controlled all at once from center pit. For those that have not been to one of these, it is a two man team match firing ten at 300 and ten at 600 for a 400 pt agg. Each team gets two minutes for unlimited sighters and then a target exposure of 20 seconds for each round. After ten shots for record you switch out. The best strategy seems to be using two rifles, one with a 300 zero and one with a 600 zero. Because you cannot wait out the condition changes, the spotter must convey the sight corrections or hold over for each shot. It is a true team effort. This year will be the first time this match is offered at Perry. I expect to see a few teams clean the entire COF. The USMC snipers will dominate. I am very proud of mine. They cost a bit more to get right but it's worth it.

pmclaine

07-02-2011, 11:01

I heard a rumor that Leatherwood/Malcolm is making a repro Unertl 8X. If it becomes reality there will be many of these clones coming on line.

1903shooter

07-02-2011, 05:55

Leatherwood is looking into making a copy of the Unertl USMC Sniper scope. BUT, several years ago I talked with Unertl after the company moved to Las Vegas, they were planning on making a copy of the USMC 8X. But they could not find anywhere in the U.S. that they could have the rear micrometer mount made and keep the scope affordable and did not want anything made in China. Unertl has since gone belly up and closed their doors. So that would lead me to believe that the only way Leatherwood can have one made is have it made in China. If made in China, I am sure it would also have chinese glass and chinese glass is not known for quality. The rear sight micrometer would most likely have quality issues also. China is not know for quality, it's known for poorly made Junk. So I wouldn't hold my breath on getting one. For my money, I stick with the real Unertl's. Unertl's are popular not because of their look's, they are popular because of the Quality of the glass, the repeatablity of the micrometer's and because you can always get your money back out of them should you ever want to sell. They might cost more but like the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for!"

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle

07-02-2011, 07:47

John Unertl knew what he was doing since he was a German sniper in WWI and was trained by the man who devised the scope John sold.

jt

Greg Ficklin

07-02-2011, 08:58

I am more optimistic on the prospect of Unertl remakes. While the original 1.25 inch scopes were fine instruments, they weren't nearly as complicated as modern internally adjusted scopes. The devil will be in the quality of the mount, and durability of adjusters. Still it won't be rocket science, or something any current manufacturer couldn't do well. The price per unit will likely be pretty high considering a limited niche market demand. Technology marched on and left these scopes behind. There is a reason that Unertl, Fecker, Litchstert, and Lyman no longer manufacture these things. It is a shame because I love them for what they are, a very simple system that works well even when compared to today's optic standards. There is a need for limited production faithful repros of the 8X Unertl because the vintage units now belong in the realm of deep pocket firearm collectors.
A real USMC 8X is too valuable as a collector in it's own right fetching thousands of dollars, to be carted around and subjected to rain and recoil as an often used rifle sight. I hope they work out the kinks and make them. I would buy one.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle

07-02-2011, 09:30

While the original 1.25 inch scopes were fine instruments, they weren't nearly as complicated as modern internally adjusted scopes.

There is still no better scope made than the Unertls. The reason they are no longer made is the cost of manufacturing (steel one piece tube, etc.). The optics were the finest ever made. One must remember they were target scopes, and not made for the field, although they hold up well under field conditions. They were expensive in the day compared to other fine scopes. When you look through a Unertl at a crow from a great distance, it still looks just like a crow. You zero that puppy and it stays zeroed. A quarter inch adjustment is exactly 1/4". One can do no better.

He made the optics for our submarines also. Not bad for an old German sniper, heh?

jt

pmclaine

07-03-2011, 03:27

And he was smart enough to get from Germany while the getting was good. He wouldnt have survived the second war and we should be thankful our guys werent on the objective end of his work.

1903shooter

07-03-2011, 06:09

Cost!!! I have a copy of the 1940 Shooters Bible. In 1940 A Winchester Standard Grade Model 70 cost $61.80, a Super Grade -70 with standard sight $86.17, a Winchester Model 52 with no sights cost $47.12, a Winchester 52 Sporting rifle cost $90.10, a Standard Winchester 75 target rifle cost $30.22 with sights. BUT a Unertl 1 & 1/2" Target scope cost $70.00, a 2 inch Target cost $125.00. Now that is an awful lotta money in 1940, for the cost of the 2" Target Scope you could buy a Winchester M-70 & a Winchester M-52 and still have money left over. As far as optics, here's a simple test for you. Take a $1500 or $2000 Leupold and focus it on an object half a mile or a mile away. Now take a Unertl and do the same. Look through each scope and you will see why there is nothing better then a Unertl. Nuff said!

There is still no better scope made than the Unertls. The reason they are no longer made is the cost of manufacturing (steel one piece tube, etc.). The optics were the finest ever made. One must remember they were target scopes, and not made for the field, although they hold up well under field conditions. They were expensive in the day compared to other fine scopes. When you look through a Unertl at a crow from a great distance, it still looks just like a crow. You zero that puppy and it stays zeroed. A quarter inch adjustment is exactly 1/4". One can do no better.

He made the optics for our submarines also. Not bad for an old German sniper, heh?

jt

pmclaine

07-03-2011, 06:43

My local shop has a 12x that has a pope rib breaking free of the tube, otherwise it appears functional - optics are clear. Parsons gave me an estimate of $400 to repair/rebuild the scope. The shop wants $600 but I think he will drop his price. What would be a reasonable cost for this? Is it even worth considering. Is parsons even still taking scopes? I saw a post where someone was unable to contact them.

Greg Ficklin

07-03-2011, 10:08

You have to be careful. Only the 1.25 inch scopes were used on the Marine Unertls, and they were 8X. If wanting to make a tribute rifle for CMP's Vinatage sniper game then 8X is the limit. The rules allow for 1.5 inch or smaller, and 8X or lower. Because the USMC Unertls were 8X, the demand for this power is high even as a non USMC scope. In my search for a scope legal for the VSM matches, I spoke to Unertl collectors that asserted that there is no difference between the USMC 8x and the civilian 8X other than the black anodized mounts, and the USMC marking. Since this was a special contract for the USMC, each unit was marked "USMC sniper" with their own serial number range.
There are many different models from many years Unertl made scopes but most run from $600 to $1000 and more depending on the model. But all bets are off on the much sought after 8X. I have seen civilian units sell for over $1500, and USMC marked go for thousands more. If the scope you are talking about is is good condition despite a broken reticule, then I would say it is a decent deal. A broken reticule is common , and easily fixed

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle

07-03-2011, 10:43

The Marine Unertls were slightly different internally from commercial versions. The guys at Parson's are great for detecting fakes as a result, and they told me they have discovered many fakes sent in as "originals".

jt

pmclaine

07-04-2011, 06:18

I'd be making a clone but probably never going to a match it would be a personal fun gun. The reticules are fine. The pope rib is the rail that guides the tube while in recoil. It looks like it was silver soldered to the tube and the one at my local shop is starting to separate from the tube. Parsons figured they needed to resecure the rib than they would have to refinish the tube, and I assume a total maintenance while it was apart. $400 two years ago.