Were YOU Ever Ordered to do anything militarily ILLEGAL or IMMORAL?

[Griff Murphey]

Not really looking here for confessions about (ahem) serious matters. I'll lead off with a couple of my wuss dental officer whines. On Okinawa, in 1974-5 there had been some serious incidents in Kin Ville outside the gate of Camp Hansen. We had a dental 4-striper Navy captain in charge of the 3rd Dental Company and the story was he was in a meeting with the General where they were discussing the "Ville Patrol" which was an officer and two NCOs (usually one was a staff sergeant or above) who went out to keep the peace in an alcohol and racially charged environment. Well basically our commander volunteered the dental officers (the hospital comany was certainly not volunteering the M.D.'s). So we had all these young dental LTs right out of dental school most of whom barely knew how to salute and they decided to make MPs out of them. Did I mention we were unarmed? It never bothered me THAT much and I always had real good Marine NCOs with me. Also I wanted to shoot in the intramurals so I did not complain too much. But some of the other young dentists were pretty upset about it - worried they'd get busted up in a fight with some drunks and lose an eye and not be able to use their education.

The other incident (also dental) was at Camp Pendleton. In those days the system for dental was when you got out, you had a year in which (if you knew or cared) you could get all of your dentistry completed. All you had to do was go to the VA, get them to identify the areas left unfinished, they'd verify you had a need then you could go to your dentist and he'd make a treatment plan which was then approved. Most dentists took it since the fees were OK, just slow-pay. The thing we dentists tried to do was make the troops AWARE of this so they could take advantage of it. So we were telling the kids, "You have these large amalgam buildups and you need a crown..." or "...you need a bridge... so use your VA BENEFITS when you get out!"
Well our 4-striper Captain held a mass meeting and told us NOT to tell the troops of unmet needs because that implied we were not taking proper care of them. I guess they had had some complaints? Anyway I thought both of these incidents were a little shady.

[Michael Tompkins]

I am sure that these pages could be FILLED with all kinds of examples by Armed Services Recruiters. I found out later that my recruiter lied to me to get me into a combat MOS. 95B (MP) was not my first choice...it was my third. In retrospect, I'm not mad at all. If I had to do it again, I would still do the same thing. Mike

[cwartyman]

No, was never ordered to do anything illegal or immoral nor was i promised anything untrue by my recruiter. Signed for a guaranteed Mos being an Avionics tech went to that school passed the course, then on to Framp for Integrated Weapons Technician passed that course then got to fleet to find out IWT had been folded into the Electric shop of Marine Corps F/a 18 squadrons. Time frame from going to boot camp to the fleet was 14 months so while I never did what I went to school to do I had not been lied to by the recruiter, things change and I still got to work on F18's as an Avionics tech. Wouldnt trade my time in for anything.
Mack

[Kirk]

I was stationed at a ATC base. One Saturday evening, I received a phone call from the base Comm center to pick up a message & deliver it to the the Director of Operations, a full Colonel. Upon arriving at the Comm center, a Captain handed me a TS message. I had only a Secret clearance & knew it was improper for me to handle TS material. The Captain was emphatic I take the message & deliver it right now, so, I did. I knocked on the front door of of the Colonel's home about 2030 hrs. He read the message and then in a very profane and rude way asked me why I was bothering him. Since I had no idea of what the message was about or its importance, I could not give him any kind of intelligent answer. It was quite humiliating.

[Maury Krupp]

Had an Army Motor Sergeant who didn't like the quality of work done on a duce-and-a-half by Ordnance. Told a couple of us to take it out and run it in 1st gear until it "blew up" so he could send it back. Said "No." He took us to the Plt Cmdr for refusing an order. Plt Cmdr told him deliberately destroying government property was a bad idea and we were right to refuse.

Had a USAF Ops Group commander in Korea try to tell me to run airplanes in IFR weather during a radar outage without the airspace and flight checked procedures necessary to do it legally and safely. Said "No, to do what you want we need radar." We had a back-up radar system but he wouldn't let us turn it on; he was worried that it might break too :icon_rolleyes: That little stand for flying safety cost me my job but the airplanes stayed grounded until the back-up radar system was turned on so I guess it was worth it.

Maury

[pelago]

you have to be kidding right, after 26yrs in Marines could write a book about

shall we say beyond eyebrow raising or questionable orders

for one, taking or not taking prisoners or treating wounded bad guys

[dave]

No, never had an "immoral" order given to me, in fact they tried to guard my morals and keep me straight! You know off limits areas, etc. Well I fooled them, most of the time! hehehe!

[Guamsst]

One that sticks out as funny to me. When I was the Nightshift NCO, Dayshift passed on through my Airmen that we needed to clean the volleyball court. Dayshift would spend a couple hours a day playing volleyball on the white court with their black boots. They had bypassed me (chickensh%!s) and told my airmen to use the Ether from the laboratory to clean the boot scuffs.

I told my airmen specifically not to clean the court. We didn't use it. Using ether was a HUGE waste of money. Using ether was hazardous. And most of all SCREW DAYSHIFT, THEY CAN KISS MY BUTT!!!

By morning, a couple of my Airmen had cleaned the court anyways. When I asked them about it they said they didn't want me to get in trouble. I explained to them that the whole pointt of not tdoing it was so that I WOULD get in trouble so I could take it up the chain. Atleast I felt appreciated.

[Dan In Indiana]

Never was ordered to do anything illegal or immoral, it was all voluntary.

[Dan Shapiro]

How about just plain STUPID?

Detailed to rake the sand spit where Gen Westmoreland was going to land during a visit. "Why? He's not going to see squat once the rotor-wash kicks up the dust."

Answer: "Well it will LOOK PRETTY as he comes in for the approach." :eusa_wall:

[DaveP]

That's typical- pick it up, paint it or salute it.

[DaveP]

I can remember back in basic, in 1964, our drill sgt. told us recruits NEVER to clean our M14s in kerosene. It was flammable, the vapors were not safe to breathe and it bsorbs through the skin, and it was prohibited. After we shot qualification, there were six 50 gal. drums cut length-wise half full of kerosene set up behind the barracks. The next order was "Clean 'em and make 'em shine!"

[Guamsst]

I can remember back in basic, in 1964, our drill sgt. told us recruits NEVER to clean our M14s in kerosene. It was flammable, the vapors were not safe to breathe and it bsorbs through the skin, and it was prohibited. After we shot qualification, there were six 50 gal. drums cut length-wise half full of kerosene set up behind the barracks. The next order was "Clean 'em and make 'em shine!"

Around 1952 My uncle was told never to use hot water to remove the cosmoline from the Garands they had just been issued. It was prohibited and would NOT be done under any circumstances. Then his D.I. loudly announced he had business to attend to and would not be back for atleast 2 hours as barrels partially filled with scalding hot water were being delivered.....LOL

[blackhawknj]

The "Illegal Orders/Unlawful Orders" nonsense started in the Fall of 1969 after the MyLai story broke. I distinctly recall my SDI in BCT telling that if you were given an order, you obeyed, if you thought it was wrong you brought that up afterwards.

[Michaelp]

That SDI was just plain wrong.
Nobody never, ever gets to put women and kids in a ditch and shoot them.
Possibly the darkest day in US military history.

The only good guys were in a chopper that landed "guns up" and stopped the mess.

That is an extreme example, but common sense does enter into a few military decisions.

Unfortunately they dropped the investigation before getting higher ups who were somewhat responsible.

Disobeying an order is not to be taken lightly, but we were all instructed on proper POW handling ref "The Enemy In Your Hands"

Always some fool who doesn't bother to read the instructions.

[Guamsst]

The "Illegal Orders/Unlawful Orders" nonsense started in the Fall of 1969 after the MyLai story broke. I distinctly recall my SDI in BCT telling that if you were given an order, you obeyed, if you thought it was wrong you brought that up afterwards.

There is a huge difference between thinking it is wrong and KNOWING it is wrong. I doubt your SDI meant executing civilians. You could probably make that decision without "thinking" about it. I generally have always dealt with people who even when they say "Just do as you are told" or, as we in Air Force fuels say "Just shut up and color" mean that if you have a problem with an order or a job, get it doen then we can take a second look at it. They also always seem to be more than willing to hear you out beforehand if it could involve jail time or injuries/death.

[blackhawknj]

The "Official" Version that I learned in 1979 or so-after I had been commissioned-was:
"An order is illegal if a man of ordinary sense and understanding would consider it so."
As I told my troops:
"An order is illegal if a court martial finds it so."
Because they're going to be the ones making the determination. I maintain the whole idea behind the "illegal orders/unlawful orders" nonsense is to relieve the higher ups of responsibility and put the burden on the lower ranks.
I have studied the MyLai Indicent for some time, once the story broke and the coverup was exposed it was then "investigated" by the Peers Commission which strove mightily to put the heaviest blame on five officers who were already dead. Calley was the highest ranking, and AFAIK
only officer punished, I condem what he did but he was a scapegoat and a fall guy.

[Michaelp]

He was also guilty of murder.
As an officer, he especially, is accountable. what happened to initiative and personal responsibility?
I know a guy in Calley's OCS class.
He describes him as very unfit and unqualified.

at that time they were squirting guys through OCS like crap through a goose.

I signed up for Inf OCS on 1967, and they came around and told us there was a 6 month backlog so I opted out and went on to Abn Inf aIT.

[Griff Murphey]

After My Lai, in the fall of '69, with Army ROTC Advanced Camp at Fort Sill looming in summer of '70, one of our cadre, an Army Captain, gave us cadets several hours on the subject of illegal orders and international laws of war RE Civilians et al. We were tested over it.

Mind you, this same captain had, earlier, told tales of "second story interrogations" conducted in Hueys and mentioned that when we got there we might occasionally see some "bad interrogations, particularly by the ARVNs..."

[gstone234]

A friend and I joined the Marine's on the buddy plan and were in the same platoon in boot camp. While qualifying at the rifle range my friend and I were shooting expert during prequal training. We had been shooting rifles since we were 13 years old. There was a fellow Marine whose shooting station was between my friend and I who was not doing well. Our DI called my friend and me into the duty hut and "suggested" to us that if we saw the other Marine wasn't going to qualify that we could shoot one or two rounds on his target since we had such high scores. On qualification day we didn't have to shoot on his target since he did OK but one other Marine located further down the line was the one who didn't qualify.

[2flasargent]

I was Officer of the Deck, on sea detail. The destroyer had more mechanical troubles than the rest of the squadron put together it seemed. Ready for sea, tested the main engines and engineering reported steam leakthroughs on the turbines (1200 pound system) Skipper wanted to go anyway, and the Chief engineer lifted the safetys. We went home near midnight when everyone thought we were gone. Broke up some marriages, too.

[Griff Murphey]

I understand that once or twice some of the big carriers have had to return unexpectedly due to engineering casualties and when word got out and the ship's whistle hooted there was a mad scramble in married quarters as all of the affairs came to an end as suddenly as they had begun, only hours before. I have heard that men have been chased down streets by other men with golf clubs, baseball bats, pistols, etc.

[mike24d20]

Boomer Widows were a real problem in Charlestown,S.C. in the early 80's.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I was never asked to do anything illegal or immoral. I did ride shotgun on the skivvy girl train each day while I was supposed to be in the hospital. I was more than willing. Once I was on a Race Relations Team, and when I contradicted the base commander's assertion that we had no racial problems in a meeting, I was so close to Laos when darkness fell that they could have thrown me a newspaper. I am certain his desire was to place me in a spot where I was most needed - right.

jt

[Former Cav]

we'd get marched down to the local village in So. Korea in 1966 for an event called "organized graba$$". I have no idea where the money came from, but all the booze was free. You had to get your own "yobo" though!! Near as I can tell, we are all "willing participants".

[martinp]

Ahh I remember raking sand and painting rocks at MCCES at 29 palms, very decorative

[John Sukey]

Keep in mind ALL recruiters "speak with forked tongue"

[Michaelp]

We pulled various details between classes and in SF Training Group.

An OIC from one of the committees came by and took a load of us over to clean up the base house he and his family were vacating.

Not bad as atrocitries go, and we all had a few beers.