M1A1 Are they any good?

[kurtflys]

I bought this M1A1 a few years ago.. It came with an Art 2 scope which never mounted worth a darn. I shot better with open sight than with the Art 2.. Anyway I called Springfield and gave them the serial number,, turns out the gun is a Super Match which they say I should not shoot since it is an early gun with all GI parts, and replacing a broken GI part might prove hard to do.. Perhaps they are right.. I have shot 100 rounds and I'm not impressed. It dents all the brass. Is that normal? I can't believe they used this for a sniper rifle.. Perhaps I could find a better scope and mounts.. Has anyone been down this road?
Thanks

[Johnny P]

I never liked the way the scopes mount on the M1A. It mounts so high that it is hard to repeat cheek placement. I notice that most of the pictures coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan show a built up cheek piece for the scoped M14 rifles. I mounted an Art I on my M1A NM for a while, but 3X at 300 yards/meters just didn't suit my type of shooting. I enjoy it much more using the open sights.
The Super Match M1A should be noticeably heavier than the standard M1A. I had a Super Match for a while, but the improvement in accuracy was small, and I liked the standard weight NM much better.

[Sako]

kurtflys, did they give you a reason you shouldn't shoot an early M1A? I have one in the 70000 serial number range and shoot it all the time.The early GI parts are a lot better than what they are selling now.
The M1A as you know is a service rifle and it does what a service rifle is supposed to do but it isn't going to shoot as well as most of better developed match rifles and calibers made today.

[Griff Murphey]

Unless you believe guns are not to be used, I suggest you ignore their advice. M-1s and M-1A/M14 rifles dent brass normally. Suggest you have your brass looked at by an experienced service rifle shooter. Your degree of denting may be just fine.

Your difficulty with the scope could be just you, or the mount may be moving. The military has been tack welding them in Iraq and Afghanistan. I am currently doing well with the Bassett one screw mount on an old Devine NM. However, best accuracy will normally be with a bolt rifle.

[Gary Norski]

It is a great rifle but is also hard on brass. The Military rifle team shooters will only reload military brass 2 times then throw it away. The case has a lot of stretch at the base. Its nothing like a 06 and a bolt gun case that can be reloaded about 20 times. Beware of MG brass as it is not worth a hoot, to much case stretch from long head space. Gary

[kurtflys]

It seemed to shoot pretty good with open sights. I think I was 3" at 100 yards.

[RED]

Scope mounts for the M1A have come a long way over the past few years. Sadlak Industries have pretty much solved most of the problems with the Art II mount. One problem is the Springfield receivers are not mil spec. Sadlak provides a kit that will allow you to determine if this is a problem and will, I believe, fit a mount to your receiver. IMO the best scope mount out there is their titanium mount. It will set you back about $400 and a really good set of rings will go for another $150.

I know this will open a can of worms but, personally I believe the Poly Tech receivers imported in the early 1990's are some of the finest available. They were forged and the Springfields are cast. Of course there are good cast receivers and there are bad forged ones. LRB makes a good one put they are very expensive. The Polys have received a bunch of bad press that is largely undeserved. The Poly receiver and chrome lined barrel are excellent. I have never seen a Poly dent cases and I usually only discard cases after 4 - 5 loadings.

Most M1A's are ammunition sensitive. The Federal Gold Metal Match is the standard but is also expensive. Yes, you do need a good cheek rest and there are several out there. I Like the one from DWP. I also have one sold by Blackhawk but it was made in Vietnam! Nuff Said?

:icon_salut:

[joem]

I have two of them and they are indeed ammo sensitive. I've only worked up a load for one of them. One day if I have time I'll work up a load for the other.

[kurtflys]

Scope mounts for the M1A have come a long way over the past few years. Sadlak Industries have pretty much solved most of the problems with the Art II mount. One problem is the Springfield receivers are not mil spec. Sadlak provides a kit that will allow you to determine if this is a problem and will, I believe, fit a mount to your receiver. IMO the best scope mount out there is their titanium mount. It will set you back about $400 and a really good set of rings will go for another $150.

I know this will open a can of worms but, personally I believe the Poly Tech receivers imported in the early 1990's are some of the finest available. They were forged and the Springfields are cast. Of course there are good cast receivers and there are bad forged ones. LRB makes a good one put they are very expensive. The Polys have received a bunch of bad press that is largely undeserved. The Poly receiver and chrome lined barrel are excellent. I have never seen a Poly dent cases and I usually only discard cases after 4 - 5 loadings.

Most M1A's are ammunition sensitive. The Federal Gold Metal Match is the standard but is also expensive. Yes, you do need a good cheek rest and there are several out there. I Like the one from DWP. I also have one sold by Blackhawk but it was made in Vietnam! Nuff Said?

:icon_salut:

I have the Sadlac mount and you need to be a gunsmith to make it fit right. But it can be done.. I might buy a 10X scope, but not sure which one.

[RED]

Wow! Mine went on in less than15 minutes with zero problems and I promise I am no gunsmith. I thought your post said you had an older Springfield Art II mount that was several years old. That is not a Sadlak mount. Anyway call Sadlak, they have great customer service.

[kurtflys]

I had both mounts.. I also did call Sadlak and they were great, and so is the mount. But mine did not just bolt on. When I did get it set up it was very stable.. I just needed a better scope.

[bd1]

I doubt you're ever going to get to a scoped rig you'll be fully satisfied with on a normal-stocked, unmodified M1A. You've seen the photos of the military's new tube-gun looking stocks for the M14; the optics rail appears to be integral. Just shoot the good M1A you already own and master the metallic sights. All it takes is clicks + decent ammo and you'll be driving tacks waaayyy out there. D.I. Boyd and Greg Strom used to shoot their M14's to National Highpower Championships against the best bolt-gunners up there.

[kurtflys]

Thanks. I might take her out this week and punch some holes.. I think my rear sight is at the bottom and it seems to still shoots high.. I will have to figure that out. I know there is a procedure for setting up the M1A sights, and I may have done it wrong.
Kurt

[kurtflys]

PPS this is a super match gun, so it is bedded, and has a good trigger, and what ever else came with the Super Match.

[bd1]

Thanks. I might take her out this week and punch some holes.. I think my rear sight is at the bottom and it seems to still shoots high.. I will have to figure that out. I know there is a procedure for setting up the M1A sights, and I may have done it wrong.
Kurt

Hmmm. Mystery to me. Conceivably the rifle used to shoot low and a prior owner filed down the front sight post to correct but took off too much and ended up overcorrecting. If that's your case, the only fix is to get a new USGI front sight, won't cost much. The sights are real simple (and real good), same as a Garand - you don't have to adjust the front post for long range elevation like w/ the AR 15. Try to do your practice shooting standing, prone, and sitting, not from a bench, if it's OK w/ your firing range director. Good luck.

[drshame]

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d13/drshame/SuprmatchIII.jpg
Here's an old SAI Supermatch that shoots fine.
I did have to replace the bolt internals with usgi parts when the extractor flew off. Very common problem that's easily fixed. The trigger lost it's first stage and I needed to send it back. Even though I was the 3rd owner, SA warranty repaired it and it's a great shooter. They do need a little TLC at times.

[kurtflys]

Nice looking gun. You shoot it open sights? What range?

[Cecil]

Try old school it works very well. This is an M82 with an original M14 Griffin & Howe bracket and M1C mount from late 50's early 60's.

[kurtflys]

I have a friend that has an Art II that was refurbished.. I think he wants 1200. I'm not sure what they are worth or how well they work.
Kurt

[John Kepler]

Nice looking gun. You shoot it open sights? What range?

Don't know about him....but I shoot mine at 1000 yds. BTW, who needs a scope?

[Cecil]

Try old school it works very well. This is an M82 with an original M14 Griffin & Howe bracket and M1C mount from late 50's early 60's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/cdj7097/m14scopemount.jpg
The photo went away in the original post.

[John HOLBROOK]

Here is an earlier post of my early M1A Sn 028248. The scope is a Leupold 4X LER Pistol.

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=576

[John Sukey]

Often wondered if we would have had the M14 or the M1A if the FN had not been "Studlered"
Col. Studler rigged the tests so the M14 came out ahead. Not invented here.

Then there was the reasoning that the M14 dould be made on the same machinery that made the M1. It couldn't!

[hagar in SC]

The R1 was my service rifle in the SADF, and I still have a definite affinity for them. I shoot AR's in competitions more than anything else, and I have learned to respect them. I also have 2 M1A's, one a 85XXX serial # with TRW bolt, HRA oprod, rear sight and HR 11 62 barrel, and the other a Springfield loaded model, and to be honest, while nice rifles, I am not that impressed with them. Mostly because of jams and rear sights working loose. I just ordered some CMI mags as one of my buddies told me my BRW mags were fake. Maybe a mag issue, maybe not.

We shoot a steel plate match every quarter at the Charlotte range, and out of the 15 or so events we have had, it was only won by an M1A ONCE, and by a Fal of some variation at least 10 times. It was won by a Yugo .223 AK once, a Sig 556 once, and by AR's the rest of the time. And if you look up and down the line, the M1A's outnumber all the other rifles at least 3 to 1.

When I lived in AZ, we had a battle rifle competition, prone at 500 yards on the Running Russian half silhoette target. You could shoot anything bigger than .223. There were people shooting Swedish mausers, K31's, M1A's, and me and one other guy were shooting FAL's, his was a DSA with a Elcan or similar optic shot from a bipod, I shot my remanufactured Azex STG/Imbel prone with a (rather loose) sling. Most of the M1A shooters shot prone with slings, and used match ammo. I did it just for the heck of it, never expected the Fal could shoot that well at long range, and just used some FNM surplus. Well I suprised the heck out of myself, that Fal was absolutely hammering, and I trashed some pretty good M1A shooters, and the guy with the DSA actually won the match.

Not saying the Fal will overtake Camp Perry, but do not underestimate them. They are not built for target shooting, but in real life type shooting will account for themselves pretty well.

[Bill D]

I just ordered some CMI mags as one of my buddies told me my BRW mags were fake. Maybe a mag issue, maybe not.



I shot an M14NM on a military rifle team for about 8 years and I can assure you that "one of your buddies" is telling you trash. BRW mags are USGI! I guarantee it and they are some of the very best. I have a bunch of them in my gun room right now.

[hagar in SC]

I did not say BRW is fake, I said these are fake BRW's.. They are blued and have the stamp in the wrong spot.

[Bill D]

I did not say BRW is fake, I said these are fake BRW's.. They are blued and have the stamp in the wrong spot.

Well, actualy you DID say "my BRW mags were fake" but since you explained what you really meant, I understand.

[kurtflys]

I have a friend that has an original ART 2. Would that work on the M1A?

[Bill D]

I have a friend that has an original ART 2. Would that work on the M1A?

It is my understanding that some of the Semi-auto M14's and possibly some M1A's had some external receiver dimension differences from the USGI M14. I don't know which ones, tho. Guess you could try it and see.

[bd1]

It should, if you have the M14 base for it. What kind of shape is the scope in? Mediocre durability was the only knock on the optical machinery. Unertl and Leupold put that issue to rest w/ their current scopes in service.

[Andrew W. Priestley]

Mounting a scope on an M1A is a potentially frustrating experience. Most aftermarket M1A or M14 receivers and even some military spec ones have some significant dimensions....inconsistencies that can make mounting a scope hit or miss. I've got a Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A Supermatch with a scope mounted via a McCann mount. It's a good solid mount, but it requires some gunsmithing to fit up, nothing you can't do yourself with care, but you need to drill the block that mounts in the clip guide dovetail. That block slides in free and is tightened to the mount body, then you need to tighten it into the dovetail and drill it for the springpin. The mount may not actually align perfectly with the bore. So you need to have plenty of adjustment in the rings or in the scope itself to get the windage dialed in.

Also, keep in mind that this rifle design was never really intended to have optics mounted and the mounting point is something of an afterthought rather than a precision mounting set up. The Springfield inc. mounts, the McCann and probably the ARMS and Brookfield mounts and its derivitives may all need to be shot in to settle things in properly. The McCann mount's instructions specifically tell you to hammer on the mounting screw for the main mount as you tighten it up, using a 2x4 as a buffer. this shock sort of swages the threads of the bolt to the receiver and allows you to get a tighter fit. It also ensures that the tenons on the mount set fully into the mortises in the receiver. Once this pounding is done the mount should be set and it can be shot, unmounted and remounted with minimal shift in zero (less than 1/2 MOA in the case of mine). My SA inc. mount required significant shooting in before it began to hold its zero, and all bets were off if you dismounted the thing and then remounted it. Maybe 2-4 MOA.

This is true of all the standard 1 and 2 point mounts including the Brookfield, ARMS, Smith Enterprises and other mounts. Some of the newer mounts have totally different ways of setting things up and I'm not at all acquainted with them, so I can't speak to them.

Have fun.

Buy the best scope mount you can find and mount it carefully, then expect to have to fiddle with it a bit to get things zeroed. Once everything is dialed in and settled in, it should shoot well, though you may want to elevate your cheek to get proper eye relief and a good cheek weld.

[kurtflys]

This scope has been in for rebuild, so it shoud be like new on the inside, and rough on the outside.