View Full Version : 1941 USMC or maybe pre-1941
After several years of lusting after a friends rifle, I finally took it home as my own. Some here may recognize it, but yes, I'm happy he gave me first crack at it.
ETA: wrong / mis quoted info, my bad. I know very little of this gun and made an assumption which was apparently way off. Just enjoy the pics for what they are....
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/MC03sniper2.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper2.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper3.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper4.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper5.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper7.jpg
http://www.adcofirearms.com/random/usmcsniper.jpg
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-11-2011, 06:48
Why do you think it belonged to the Marines?
I have researched these rifles for years, and I have never heard of the 3-digit serial number to which you refer. Could you elaborate for me and educate an old man?
jt
Some M1903's were equipped with Winchester A5's during WW1. Winchester sold the A5 to Lyman who modified and began producing it as the Lyman 5A during the mid 20's. Marine documents dating from the early 40's seem to use the A5/5A nomenclature interchangeably. It would be interesting know what circumstances prompted the USMC to buy Lyman 5A's between the wars, when they bought them and how many.
One of the major roadblocks that Capt. Van Orden and other promoters of a USMC sniping program encountered in the early 40's was the fact that the Corps did not provide for snipers in the table of organization at the time.
Regards,
Jim
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-11-2011, 10:31
The Marines bought Lymans because Winchester sold the A5 patent to Lyman in 1926. Lyman added the bottom rib and sold it as the 5A thereafter. The Marines had a ton of modified A5's left over from WWI, but to my knowledge, never used them in team shooting. They did use the unmodified A5's in Marine mounts, but this one is in commercial #2 mounts as mounted before WWI. As the A5's broke, or bent usually, they were replaced with 5A's, thus the Marines considered them equivalents, which they were. I know how many A5's/5A's they had in 1940 when they were gearing up for the 1941 Sniper, but I don't know the exact ratio of the two.
That is the neatest electro-penciled SN I have ever seen on a bolt. It lacks the usual splatter at the ends of the strokes. If this is truly a Marine match rifle (can't be a 1941 Sniper since it doesn't sport a Unertl), why the engraved serial number on the scope? I am hoping Bigbore can enlighten us. It is a nice looking rifle.
jt
You kids can nit pick all the could bes, what ifs, and supposed to bes all you want. I just posted pictures of I rifle I think is cool. I'm not here to enlighten anyone.
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-12-2011, 07:52
You kids can nit pick all the could bes, what ifs, and supposed to bes all you want. I just posted pictures of I rifle I think is cool. I'm not here to enlighten anyone.
Nit pick what? You posted this rifle as a 1941 USMC (or earlier) rifle. I presume you meant 1941 USMC Sniper rifle, which it clearly isn't. It is NOT a USMC sniper rifle, and that isn't nit-picking. The Marines had a sniper rifle in WWI, and after WWI, didn't even have a MOS for a sniper until WWII, when they built the 1941 Sniper rifles from match rifles, that sported a 7.8X Unertl scope, which this rifle doesn't have, and it is not one of those series of rifles, nor does it have all the aspects of one. The Marines built no sniper rifles in between these two time frames, as they had no need for them.
It does appear to be a match rifle, as it's serial number lands within a series of DCM A1NM sales rifles sold in the 1935 to 1937 time frame, which it does appear to be. What it isn't is a USMC sniper rifle. FYI, if the Marines had wanted to stick with the A5/5A scope, it had almost a thousand of them left over from WWI. They had no need, nor desire, to build another sniper rifle with a A5/5A scope, especially a grasshopper one that they ruled out in 1917.
It is a nice rifle to be sure, I was just curious about the title of your post and the comment about the 3-digit serial number, and I am still curious. No need to get rude or huffy, and I am a long way from being a kid by any definition. By the way, I have an almost identical rifle, and it isn't a Marine sniper rifle either.
I am not trying to offend you, I genuinely want to know about the 3-digit serial numbers.
jt
1903shooter
07-13-2011, 05:35
I can't find a reference, but (if I remember right) didn't the Lyman and Winchester 5A & A5 scopes require 6 inch center to center blocks? The Fecker, Unertl and Lyman Junior and Super Target scopes require a 7.2 inch center to center. The pictures look like this rifle has a 7.2 inch mounting???
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-13-2011, 05:56
The very early A5 scoped rifles did have 6" centers, but the Marines discovered they bent too easily. They went to the 7.2" spacing before WWI.
jt
Good looking rifle, but IMO it isn't a USMC rifle from WWII. The rifle falls into the right date range for known rifles, but I've never seen a legit WWII rifle with anything but an Unertl. Given the date range of the rifle and the fact the Marine Corps didn't build rifles as specific sniper rifles in the interwar period I can't see how the rifle would be original as configured. It is possible it is a USMC rifle, if all of the "hall marks" are there...("prick" mark on barrel maybe or trigger guard work? among other things..;) ) but as everyone knows there are a lot of fakes out there...not saying this is a fake...just stating the obvious..Of course not all rifles will be "text book" correct (just ask Big Larry about a 1941 rifle I owned back in the mid/late '90's with a straight grip FG stock...but EVERYTHING else righteous...and pictures of the late '30's USMC shoting teams and WWII pictures...showing straight grip FG stocks..) Still a good looking rifle and one I'd gladly put in my safe!
How does it shoot?
Greg
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-15-2011, 11:32
I have a picture of a WWII sniper and his Unertl equipped 03 in a S stock. I have no idea how the straight stock got onto the rifle, maybe a broken stock or a shooter preference, who knows?
I think this guy believes this to be a sniper rifle, as he mentions "the Lyman 5A with the 3 digit SN was the scope used/evaluated before switching to the UNERTL", which isn't correct. The Lyman was not used as a sniper scope by the Marines, only the Winchester A5 in WWI. I have no clue what he means by "the 3-digit serial number". The A5 was being replaced, and was not part of the evaluation for its own replacement. I do have a list of the scopes evaluated somewhere. They had decades of experience with the A5/5A, and hardly needed to evaluate it.
jt
Let's all un-bunch the panties. I'll make no assumptions of what may or may not be. I'm not declaring any nomenclature, or or other branding of what this is or isnt. Fair enough ? :)
My comment on the scope / rifle combo came from an excerpt from the book The Springfield 1903 rifles: the illustrated, documented story of the design. pages attached.
"The Lyman 5A telescope, some of which were used by the USMC on their 03 rifles."
That may be totally incorrect, but was my point of reference.
The 3 digit SN was in reference to the SN on the scope itself. I have no idea what, if any significance it may have.
What I am confident of is the base rifle is a genuine USMC Rifle Team rifle, with a scope that was installed by the USMC, many years ago. This rifle has been owned by the same person for at least 50yrs, and it has been inspected closely by many armorers from the AMU, USMC, CMP, along with Mike Gingher who was a good friend of the previous owner. They all say it's the real deal for whatever it is anyone wants to call it.
I cant prove this was built as it sits by the USMC, and no one can prove it was not. I will make sure in the future to never make reference to it with the date 1941 again though.
As to how it shoots, it shoots great.
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-19-2011, 07:34
The statement in Brophy is entirely correct. Originally the Marines used the A5, but when Winchester sold the A5 to Lyman, it became the 5A, and the Marines naturally bought them as replacements. I see no problem with it being a USMC team rifle, but the handguard (which may not be original to the rifle) treatment is a little unusual, and the scope is mounted a little different from what I am used to seeing.
It is a nice looking rig to be sure, and so are the other two, of which I hope you post pictures, especially the W&S equipped rifle. Would you mind sharing your serial numbers (scope and rifle) with us? I will gladly give you mine (my rifle - SA 936682 and my scope is #126 M1908, a mismatch) We keep a database on the hopes that we can match scopes with rifles. I know of only one matched set, but there are probably others. If we see a match (scope to rifle), we connect the two owners and let them hash out their own deal with the hope that one rifle will wind up with its long lost matched scope. You can email it to me if you prefer. My email address is jimtarleton@att.net
That is a nice set of rifles you have there, and this one makes a great addition (I have the same three rifles).
Nothing bunched here at all, by the way:-).
Jim
The 03 w/ the WS is SN:936460, the scope is Model 1913 # 5594. The base that is attached to the scope is stamped "FOR RIFLE NO 936460". Just looked at the scope case, and its numbered 936430.
I never thought to look for that before and didn't notice until just now. Cool.
optics are in pretty good shape.
http://www.adcofirearms.com/junkpics/03ws.jpg
kinda sloopy and backwards numbers...
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
07-20-2011, 12:13
Thanks, Bigbore. Your rifle isn't far off from mine. Do you mean the rifle you have matches the rifle serial number on the scope? If it does, you have a real keeper.
Jim
Do you mean the rifle you have matches the rifle serial number on the scope?
Jim
yes
It took me this long to find where I hid the book, but what are the odds it's real? It too is numbered to the gun/scope.
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
08-14-2011, 07:44
It took me this long to find where I hid the book, but what are the odds it's real? It too is numbered to the gun/scope.
You have better odds of winning the Powerball Lottery.
The rifles and scopes were separated long ago (1918 - 1919 time frame). The scopes were sold at auction at a later date, and some of the rifles were plugged and returned to service, some were destroyed, and some just wore out. The original scoped rifles were shipped to France as fast as they could be made (see WWI cablegrams), but were discovered to be very unreliable, and required frequent and lengthy repair (same cablegrams). Their use was discontinued during WWI around March of 1918 (same cablegrams). All the scopes were not mounted as a result, leaving a load of scopes with no serial number stamped into the rail, but since the rifles were made with the holes drilled into them ahead of time, the rifles existed with the appropriate holes. A host of fakers have stamped the serial number of their rifle (real or not) into the rail of a blank scope in an effort to increase the value of both. A quick survey of a stamped serial number will reveal its origin in a few seconds.
Sales databases like mine or Eyeberg's often reveal a scope that was sold without a serial number and then appears later with a serial number. Since the stamp font and letter height used by SA are both a bit oddball, anyone familiar with the scopes can spot a fake in a split second. A favorite practice of the soldiers that used them was to urinate on the frame to cause it to rust and tighten up. As a result, most frames are heavily pitted, as is yours. Since the stamps were all in the same place in a jig, a faker has to stamp his serial number over the corrosion pits, which stands out like a big red flag. You might want to check yours.
To find the matching scope for a rifle is next to impossible, but finding a TM that matches as well as the scope is absurd. First of all, who in WWI had one of those stamps in a combat zone (or any other zone)? Personal and official records indicate the rifles were issued in combat without any instructions (TM's), so if the TM was real, the person to whom the rifle was issued would have had to stamp that number on that TM in a mud filled trench in France. I would say the odds are on a par with walking across Texas and finding three parts of the Shuttle that fit together.
jt:icon_scratch:
You have better odds of winning the Powerball Lottery.
The rifles and scopes were separated long ago (1918 - 1919 time frame). The scopes were sold at auction at a later date, and some of the rifles were plugged and returned to service, some were destroyed, and some just wore out. The original scoped rifles were shipped to France as fast as they could be made (see WWI cablegrams), but were discovered to be very unreliable, and required frequent and lengthy repair (same cablegrams). Their use was discontinued during WWI around March of 1918 (same cablegrams). All the scopes were not mounted as a result, leaving a load of scopes with no serial number stamped into the rail, but since the rifles were made with the holes drilled into them ahead of time, the rifles existed with the appropriate holes. A host of fakers have stamped the serial number of their rifle (real or not) into the rail of a blank scope in an effort to increase the value of both. A quick survey of a stamped serial number will reveal its origin in a few seconds.
Sales databases like mine or Eyeberg's often reveal a scope that was sold without a serial number and then appears later with a serial number. Since the stamp font and letter height used by SA are both a bit oddball, anyone familiar with the scopes can spot a fake in a split second. A favorite practice of the soldiers that used them was to urinate on the frame to cause it to rust and tighten up. As a result, most frames are heavily pitted, as is yours. Since the stamps were all in the same place in a jig, a faker has to stamp his serial number over the corrosion pits, which stands out like a big red flag. You might want to check yours.
To find the matching scope for a rifle is next to impossible, but finding a TM that matches as well as the scope is absurd. First of all, who in WWI had one of those stamps in a combat zone (or any other zone)? Personal and official records indicate the rifles were issued in combat without any instructions (TM's), so if the TM was real, the person to whom the rifle was issued would have had to stamp that number on that TM in a mud filled trench in France. I would say the odds are on a par with walking across Texas and finding three parts of the Shuttle that fit together.
jt:icon_scratch:
Makes sense to me.
Badgerord
08-15-2011, 05:52
Of the few "Matching" (Tongue in cheek) W&S scopes/Rifles I have seen they ALL have the serial number in an erratic row, not well ordered as Jim mentioned.
Marty
Badger Ordnance
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
08-15-2011, 08:01
Of the few "Matching" (Tongue in cheek) W&S scopes/Rifles I have seen they ALL have the serial number in an erratic row, not well ordered as Jim mentioned. Marty Badger Ordnance
I understand completely.
Many people think these rifles were thrown together for combat, but they were meticulously assembled by SA. The receivers were D&T'ed prior to hardening, the barrels were all star gauged (no markings), and the scopes were matched to the rifles by placing the rifle serial number in the inner rail of the scope and shipped as a unit. The rifle serial number was stamped in a jig (SA didn't hand stamp anything but inspection codes). The same shop built all the rifles as they were short handed due to having to man the rebuild armory in France. All the stampings will look exactly alike (except for the change in number) and be in the same place on the rail. In other words, the rifles were well planned and executed in their production and assembly.
I personally only know of one matched set (rifle w/M1913 W&S). I don't own it unfortunately, but I know who does.
The rifles are very accurate. I can consistently hit a half-man target at 350 yards shot after shot. The Marines at Stoney Point recently put over 100 rounds through mine nailing the 350 and 500 yard targets. I had sighted it in dead on at 100 yards before the shoot. We just dialed in the required elevation using the scope adjustments and it hit where it was aimed. It is an awkward rifle to shoot, and will do a job on your eye.
The serial number on your rail was not stamped by SA. It was stamped after the corrosion took place, and NO ONE in SA would have gotten the numbers backwards or upside down. The men who worked at SA were the ultimate in professional armorers, and their work was consistently on a par with anyone on earth. Their inspection routines were thorough beyond belief, and their standards were near to perfection as one could get.
Badger is well acquainted with these scopes and rifles, by the way. Don't you have a series of pics of one posted somewhere, Badger? Seems to me I remember you having a couple of them and selling one.
jt
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