20 round G-43 magazines?

[Griff Murphey]

There is a picture of a G-43 with what appears to be a 20 Rd. Magazine, in the book OUT OF NOWHERE. I had no idea the Germans ever made them. Has anyone here ever seen one?

[Michaelp]

Somebody has referred to them as modified WW1 GEW trench mags.

[Griff Murphey]

Well the photo I'm referring to made it, at least to me, look like a giant G-43 mag. I did some checking just now and Wikipedia says "an unknown number of late war G-43s were converted to 7.92X 33mm caliber, using standard Stg-44 magazines..." Perhaps that's what I saw....

Interestingly Jackson Armory in Dallas has two G-43s (at least they did a couple of months ago) made or rebuilt in Brazil, .30'06 cal., modified to use U.S. BAR mags. I was told they were a real issue weapon in the Brazilian forces. Wikpedia confirmed Brazlian production by Itajuba.

[RCS]

The G-43 extended magazine in the book "Out of Nowhere" appears to be in 7,92x57mm not 7,92x33, they did have experimental magazines for these rifles. A common magazine that is adopted to the G-43 is the MG13 magazine which holds 25 rds. The German WW1 trench magazine is without feed lips and has a smooth sides being designed for a bolt action using strpper clips.

Some of the G-43 rifles made in Brazil for the 30-06 have been for sale here in the US.

[Griff Murphey]

Thanks! The book is at my office and I'll report back tomorrow. What you suggest about the MG-13 mag sounds right.

I haven't examined one of the trench mags for the '98 but I do own its opposite number; the '03 air service one and it did not make sense to me you could adapt something made to replace an M-98 floorplate as a magazine to work in a G-43. At least, not without welding-on new feed lips etc.

[RCS]

The extended G-43 magazine pictured in "Out of Nowhere" is not the MG13 magazine as the indents on the sides are different

[Griff Murphey]

RCS:
Yes, I just looked at an MG-13 mag on the web and you are absolutely right. The detents on the MG-13 mag look very close to the G-43, however.

But that said... "Close" in magazines is not very "close," sometimes....

[jgaynor]

Some "authorities" installed 25 round "air service" magazines in m1903 snipers (W&S). While it makes fun picture is there any real reason to believe these oversized magazines were really used as sniping equipment?

Regards,
Jim

[Griff Murphey]

I don't think I said the Air Service mag was ever used in sniping. I said that TYPE of magazine, which replaces the magazine floor plate, did not seem to be practical for conversion (of a Gew 98 trench mag) to fit in the G-43 without welding up mag lips, etc. In fact I think the A/S mag would have been VERY impractical on any type of 03 sniper variant, because the shooter would have had to fire a very high prone and may NOT have been able to use some concealment and support otherwise available due to the huge box mag.

[jgaynor]

Griff, you didn't make the comment about the 03 w/Air Service mag but back in the 60's a little booklet on sniper rifles was published that did. Just for good measure the author also included a grenade launching boot on the buttstock.
I agree with your points. The size and weight would make these very impractical for sniping use. The one exception might be for a sniper firing from a prepared armored loophole.

Regards,
Jim

[Griff Murphey]

I have used one on an 03A3 sporter in 3 gun. Beautiful gun in magazine-rest prone. Of course nobody is shooting back at you so the high prone is no problem. But if there are multiple targets, particularly short- range, the AR-15s will beat you, bad.

Thanks for the story about the booklet on sniper rifles.

[MJ1]

MG13 mags are not the best one to use, ZB26 magazines were prefered and lock up tight and have fewer loading problems. There was one on display in '66 with a stright 20 round magazine at the school I went to.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/9644901d.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

Looks like you would need a detent cut in the spine to make it work. Suggestion much appreciated... as you may have guessed I am toying with the idea of using the 43 in 3 gun.

[MJ1]

Zb26 magazines are generaly well made and finished with lots of war time German proof marks but I still prefer the ten rounder. I will have to dig out my Zb26 magazines and post a photo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/d5fe95f7.jpg

[emmagee1917]

A little off topic , but perhaps you could answer a little question that's bugged me for years. Why does the lower pockets of the paratrooper's bandoleer have two flaps and the upper ones only one ?
Chris

[MJ1]

The lowers hold two chargers. Ta-Da!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/70d96521.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

Ach du Lieber! Queso mit Bier!

I would very much like to see a couple of pics of a Zb-26 mag.

[emmagee1917]

Really ? Do you mean each lower "pocket" has two compartments , each holding a single charger and each accessed by a separate flap , and the uppers only one compartment to hold a single charger ?
Chris

[MJ1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/25896181.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

Interesting. And they work well? I should try one... I would have expected a detent cut into the spine but hey, if they work.....

[MJ1]

You would have to mod. them yourself, I got these in the early 80's and paid dearly but I bet today they can be had for less. I had two German marked ones like new but sold them before my state went on the magazine ban and I think these are Canadian or Polish 8mm as they have a single small letter in a circle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/b1f757ce.jpg

Pura Vida
...MJ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/e9a12073.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

Many thanks!

[MJ1]

Any time

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/33ad183a.jpg

[Griff Murphey]

Just looked at IMA's ad in the latest SGN, they have raised them from $50 to $89.95.... My luck!

[Griff Murphey]

MJ-1, sent you a private message.... Thanks!

[Art]

Some "authorities" installed 25 round "air service" magazines in m1903 snipers (W&S). While it makes fun picture is there any real reason to believe these oversized magazines were really used as sniping equipment?

Regards,
Jim

The point of oversize magazines on bolt guns wasn't sniping but to deliver a higher volume of fire, usually from defensive positions. I understand the Marines were useing some high capacity magazines for the M1903 rifle as late as the Guadalcanal campaign.

The Germans were very short of sniper rifles for most of World War II and pressed all the foreign captured sniper weapons they could into service. The G43 "sniper" rifle with the little ZF 4 telescopic sight is just one example to the stop gap measures the Nazis took in the Sniping arena.

[RCS]

It would be interesting to view a photo or two of a US Marine with a larger than five round magazine on the Model 1903. Any other documentation might support your statement.
The Marines did use large capacity 100 rd drums on the Colt 21 TSMG's provided to them by the US Post Office Dept during the 1920's to guard the US Mail. The Marines also used the 50 rd drum during the banana wars and in WW2. The BAR is always seen with the 20 rd magazine from WW1 to Korea

What type of high capacity magazine was used - from your understanding - on the Model 1903 rifle ?

[Griff Murphey]

Let me just jump in here; I seem to recall reading or hearing that in the Guadalcanal campaign, some BAR mags were tack welded to 03 trigger guards but I cannot give you a reference or any evidence.

[RCS]

The BAR magazine will not fit into the trigger guard unless you saw-off both sides of the magazine, then you could insert a BAR magazine. Now you have to look for a magazine spring to provide enough power for the cartridges to feed in a bolt action 1903. How would you tack-weld the BAR to what metal part on the 1903 ? the BAR magazine is one inch across the back (unloaded) while the inside diameter of the 1903 magazine section is .910 at the rear and .818 at the front, you are going to need a very large hammer to insert that BAR magazine into the 1903 trigger guard.

What is wrong with the five round stripper clip ?

[Art]

Let me just jump in here; I seem to recall reading or hearing that in the Guadalcanal campaign, some BAR mags were tack welded to 03 trigger guards but I cannot give you a reference or any evidence.

I'm in the same boat. I read an article on the subject, I think in The American Rifleman. If I can find it I'll post the reference.

[RCS]

Look on www.joesalter.com he has an "airservice magazine" for sale - note the design of this magazine so that it will fit the 1903 rifle.

Anyone remember when the 7,62 BREN magazines were modified to fit the FAL ? There were some problems as the weak BREN spring only had to push down on the cartridges when installed in the FAL rifle the spring did not always provide enough tension for reliable feed

[Griff Murphey]

I think the RIFLEMAN was the publication. The magazine was not inserted, just welded to the trigger guard. One would think the Air Service magazines might have been of use. Unfortunately they were mouldering away in a warehouse until sold off or junked in the 50's-60's.

[RCS]

You know the US Marines were well trained on the use of the M1903, rapid fire, using the stripper clip, bayonet training etc - yet someone is going into a close combat situation with a homemade magazine attachment that may work or may not work ? I can not buy this ! The "airservice" magazine was never accepted, being a poor design, the Germans had a 20 rd magazine during WW1, the British had a curved 20 rd magazine for the Lee Enfield in 1918. The concept of using a larger magazine on a bolt action rifle was around long before WW2 but also died long before WW2. The story always sounds good, the Type 99 LMG magazine on the Japanese Type 99 rifle or the franken AK47/M16 magazine for our M16.

[MJ1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/montereyjack/f58a34e8.jpg

Looks BAR to me

[RCS]

Nice prop for the camera, they must have used hundreds like that in combat, before that they were tested at Aberdeen

[Griff Murphey]

The air service magazine I have works great! I think it was very well designed.

[MJ1]

You can see the bead of brass rod melted on there. REMF shot. But the GI must have had some skills.

[Griff Murphey]

I bet that real cream puff looking major was the S-4. Hey MJ1 I sent you a PM.

That is actually a good height for an extended mag making for a great magazine rest in prone.

[Griff Murphey]

Back to the original G-43 question....I tried an MG-13 mag which in the interim I ordered from IMA. Possibly could be modified but not a good bet for the G-43. Although the retention system is similar, all of the notches/ledges are there but in the wrong places.

[John Sukey]

I still wonder why a sniper would need an extended magazine?

[MJ1]

Nothing new in my box?

[Griff Murphey]

Should be, now.

[Griff Murphey]

Just to answer John Sukey, several of the current bolt action sniper rifles use 10 rd. Mags, or 7 rds. For larger calibers. The M-21 was/is very successful with the 20 rd. Mag. Of course, a long magazine prevents a very low prone such as the "Hawkins" position.

If the field expedient 20 rd. Mags were used on Guadalcanal it was probably for extra firepower dealing with massed infantry attack, i.e. Banzai charges. If It was done at all I suspect it would not have been done on USMC sniper 03s.

[RCS]

I would be courious to know how the M1903 rifle was altered to accept the BAR magazine ? I have converted M1 rifles in the past to accept magazines so I do have some idea as to the machine work involved. The BAR magazine being one inch wide (unloaded) will not fit inside any of my 1903 stocks, inletting would be required. The issue 1903 trigger guard with the bottom plate removed is too narrow to insert the BAR magazine. Another question, do any of you think a new magazine section was fabricated to accept the BAR magazine ? of course after all this fabrication the new BAR magazine was then welded to the altered trigger guard.

[emmagee1917]

In WW1 , they had adapters that placed the rifle over the top of the trench while the sniper stayed below. You aimed through parascopes and worked the bolt and trigger through linkages . You set these up before daybreak to keep from being spotted. There was no way to recharge the rifle without bringing it down to do so. That put you in a very real danger of being spotted and recieving some HE for your trouble. 20 rd mags allowed you twenty shots a day vs 5 for a normal rifle. As an air service rifle , it has been proposed to keep loose stripper clips and bandoliers / belts out of the cockpit controls to having less to grab out of a downed plane.
Chris

[RCS]

I am familiar with the"airservice" 1903 magazine, there is one for sale now ($995) on joesalter, they are not the same as a BAR magazine. They are more like the BM59 magazines rather than like the BAR magazine. Like I said before in my recent post, I am courious as to the conversion of the BAR to fit and function inside the M1903 rifle - what was done to complete this conversion ? was it the"field expedient" conversion done in the field or at the front line ?

[emmagee1917]

I have one. They have no feed lips and they attach to an '03 just like a detachable floorplate. If I was to adapt a BAR mag to a '03 or a A3 or A4 , I'd solder / weld the mag to the floorplate after cutting off the feed lips and part of the top to be sure the spring would have enough reach to feed. I would also have to cut open the bottom of the A3/4 floorplate if I was going to use one of those. I would then shim the inside of the BAR mag to make a smooth cartridge stack from top to bottom so as to not hang up the follower. I would have to modify the BAR follower's width or the rifle's follower to fit the BAR spring ( which may also have to be modified). Another option would be to use several '03 mag springs riveted or welded together somehow.
Chris

[RCS]

Everyone keeps circumventing the magazine in the trigger guard, if a person really wanted to make this foolhardy conversion, you would need the following: a BAR magazine filler (photo) this allows you to use the five round stripper clips to reload the magazine when removed from the rifle. You would trim the top down and used this part in the center of the trigger guard after the front and rear section were cut, this plus a BAR magazine with the top part with the lips removed - then weld it all together. You could even add a BAR Seymour case hardened follower(photo) and when you are all done, you still have junk.

There were two issue WW1 sniper rifles that could hold ten rounds, can anyone name them ?1254712548

[Griff Murphey]

SMLE would be one, possibly the other might be a scoped Mexican Mondragon in German service, or a Gew 98 sniper with trench mag fitted.

[RCS]

Mr Murphey, Besides the Lee Enfield with 10 rd magazine, there was the French Lebel M1886 with APX scope model 1917, also the Lebel was used (very limited) with the Winchester A5 scope wth the APX 1915 mount. The Lebel magazine holds eight cartridges, plus another in the lifter and the last or tenth round in the chamber

[Griff Murphey]

Thank you for the info. I am pretty much ignorant on les Ames Francais....

[RCS]

some photos of Lebel sniper rifles from WW11272612727