WW and WWII Sniper Ammo

[Cosine26]

I have seen some discussion of Sniper Rifles of all kinds for WWI and WWII, but I have never seen any discussion of any attempt to provide the snipers with selected, accurate ammunition. I believe that in NAM and today, an effort to provide both special rifles and ammo was/is being made.
I would wonder if the USMC or the army snipers could make full use of their sniper rifles, lacking anything other than the standard service ammo, be it either Ball or AP. Some of the acceptance specs for war time ammo were fairly loose. I know that selected lots of Ball and AP could be good, but am unaware of any effort being made to supply this ammo to snipers.
Just curious.

[snakehunter]

I have seen some discussion of Sniper Rifles of all kinds for WWI and WWII, but I have never seen any discussion of any attempt to provide the snipers with selected, accurate ammunition. I believe that in NAM and today, an effort to provide both special rifles and ammo was/is being made.
I would wonder if the USMC or the army snipers could make full use of their sniper rifles, lacking anything other than the standard service ammo, be it either Ball or AP. Some of the acceptance specs for war time ammo were fairly loose. I know that selected lots of Ball and AP could be good, but am unaware of any effort being made to supply this ammo to snipers.
Just curious.

I don't know about the world wars but as of a year or so ago the Marines had special armorers at Quantico who fine tuned the M40s and loaded the ammo for them, matching the ammo with each individual rifle. Haven't heard anything about it since.

[Ron James]

You have to remember, In WWI and especially in WWII snipers were very low priority's for the Allied Forces. Snipers don't win battles nor do they win wars. At the most they are an irritant and aggravation for the other side , easily overcome. The Allies were concerned with battles involving 10's of thousands of men and equipment. They were concerned with producing millions of firearms that shot minute of chest, not a small amount of ammo for a few men. Also most snipers on the American side were used as designed company marksmen and not true snipers. BTW as a side note, very few snipers were ever taken prisoner, almost all were shot in " battle " or killed trying escape, on all sides.

[dhuze]

Along with what Ron said the 30-06 ammo was accurate enough to take out enemy targets at the ranges the snipers were shooting in WWI and II. During WWII they were producing match ammo and I'd think some of that ended up in the hands of snipers. Also the AP ammo is quite accurate and most troops preferred it over ball.

[Art]

I think the above two answers are essentilally correct. The standard issue ball ammunition was more than adequate for the ranges that snipers in World War II operated at which from what I've read was 300-450 meters. Sometimes longer but very seldom. Beyond that the 2x to 4x telescopic sights used my most of them and the limitations of many of the rifles began to tell.

Modern snipers are called on to engage targets at 1/4 to 1/2 mile but they have much better rifles and optics and they do use match grade ammunition.

[jgaynor]

Todays logistics make the supply of a customized item to a combat zone much more practical than was the case in WW2.
Regards,
Jim

[dave]

The rifles were not the finely tuned types used for snipping to-day so special ammo was probably better in them marginally. And AP ammo is no more accurate then regular ball at combat ranges, you have to get out beyond 5-600 yrds. before it is better (boat tail bullets). It was used by the troops because it "shot through things"! It was useless againest most all armour in WW11.

[John Sukey]

The only British ammo I can think of was Mk8z. originaly designed for machine guns but could be used in a rifle for extra range.

[Cosine26]

For dhuze:
Who produced the match ammo during WWII? After 1930, 30 caliber NM ammo was discontinued and the National matches were fired with selected lots of 30 M1 Ball. 30 M1 Ball was discontinued and declared obsolete in 1940 when 30 M2 Ball was standardized.

[Fred Pillot]

I worked for a WW2 vet that was in the Pacific. He and his guys were from the Texas National Guard and considered themselves good with a rifle. When they got the chance, the would pull the ammo out of their 8 rnd. clips and roll them across the hood of a Jeep. If the found any bullets to be a bit crooked, they would give them to the BAR man.

[raymeketa]

Cosine26 is essentially correct. The NM ammunition made between 1931 and 1939 was selected lots of M1 Ball. Since it was selected based on firing tests, it probably was more accurate than the standard M1. Mean Radius groups at 600 yards ran about 2.5 to 3.5" compared with the standard spec as high as 7.5" for the Ball and 10" for the AP.

M2 AP has a flat based bullet, not a boattail. Any increase in accuracy at longer ranges is probably the result of a higher BC. Even the reported greater accuracy of the AP is probably exaggerated, IMHO. The reports were mostly from GIs shooting at base matches where AP was the primary (only) issue and they were prone to basing their opinions on their own personal experience. If the AP really was more accurate, you'd find the real Match shooters using it, and that simply doesn't happen.

The "sniper" ammunition situation changed considerably after the KW when the M14 became the primary battle rifle and the 7.62mm NATO became the cartridge. The newly established AMU began to load match ammunition and build match rifles ,and both were used by snipers when appropriate. In 1963, the M118 Match cartridge became the de-facto sniper cartrige and it, and it's successor, the M118SB, continued to be used until the mid 1990s when the M118 LR became the sniper/match/tactical round. The M118LR is still loaded today although some service branches, such as the USN and USMC, also load their own. The US has not made dedicated match ammunition since 1996.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

During WWI, the Marines used specially designed rifles for sniping, and had a sniping school larger than any that have existed since. The instructors were all experienced snipers or expert riflemen who had already completed the course. The rifles had A5 mounted in one of a kind mounts specifically designed for sniping and star gauged barrels fitted to their individual identified stocks (matched pair). The snipers were used to advance and retreat, and were an integral part of unit maneuvers. Every Marine company had designated snipers, and lots of them (I won't say how many for a reason). To give you some idea how effective the training was, a Marine sniper at Le Mare farm killed 6 Germans with six shots in just a matter of minutes at a measured 1440 yards. He was shooting from a haystack, and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions (usually reserved for officers in WWI) and a Silver Citation (later the Silver Star). 1,000 yard shots were common.

Many of the original snipers were killed at Belleau Wood, but some, like Cpl. Fred Samuel Truitt (two Silver Stars) lived to go home and raise a family. Their kill counts were huge, as the day's tactics led to hay days for snipers.

The ammo used was the same ammo used by the other Marines, which was pretty lame compared to today's ammo.

I'll let someone else speak for WWII, etc.

To answer your question, in WWI, snipers were highly valued and extensively used, armed with dedicated "sniper" rifles, but used issued ammo. They were first on the line and the last to retreat. If you examine Pershing's cablegrams, you will see that he was very involved with equipping his snipers, which he highly valued. There were 7 sniping schools in France, run by the British, and several more run by the AEF. As far as being taken prisoner, "Periscope", author of "Scout-Sniping", was taken prisoner and wrote a book about his escape. He was a prolific sniper, and a Canadian citizen.

jt

[DMark]

..... Every Marine company had designated snipers, and lots of them (I won't say how many for a reason)......
jt,

Why won't you say how many? :icon_scratch:

I wouldn't think there could be an OPSEC issue after all of these years.

[Guamsst]

jt,

Why won't you say how many? :icon_scratch:

I wouldn't think there could be an OPSEC issue after all of these years.

That's what I was thinking. But maybe he won't say because he didn't come here for an argument...LOL

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

jt,

Why won't you say how many? :icon_scratch:

I wouldn't think there could be an OPSEC issue after all of these years.

Research not copyrighted yet, but soon.

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

That's what I was thinking. But maybe he won't say because he didn't come here for an argument...LOL

No argument required, as I can back up my data with military records. My moniker is a result of a lot of research into WWI Marine snipers who were equipped with rifles bearing A5 scopes - Marine A5 Snipers, get it?:) It was a huge amount of work in an area few seem to find interesting, but I met a lot of nice folks in the process.

jt:1948:

[raymeketa]

I shoot long range competition (1000 yards). Being able to hit the center of a 4-foot square target with the first shot still amazes me. Doing it at 1440 yards with rifles and ammunition of the WWI era is outstanding!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I shoot long range competition (1000 yards). Being able to hit the center of a 4-foot square target with the first shot still amazes me. Doing it at 1440 yards with rifles and ammunition of the WWI era is outstanding!

1440 yards and at moving targets. Witnesses were so impressed that they had an officer and a staff NCO measure the distance and document the witnesses after the battle (all in his personnel file). The sniper himself had been wounded (artillery) and was in a hospital and never returned to combat. The Marines engaged the Germans at 880 yards and decimated their ranks with their 1903's. No German reached the American line of defense in that engagement. French officers (who had just retreated through the Marine lines) witnessed the carnage and were astounded at the ability of the Marines to hit targets at what they considered extreme ranges.

jt

[DMark]

Research not copyrighted yet, but soon..... jt
So it is OPSEC. :icon_lol:

Looking forward to reading your work.

Thanks,

Mark

[Johnny in Texas]

Did WW1 Marine A5 Snipers have spotters with them to help Dial them in on a 1440 yrd. target. That is hardly a one shot one kill range even today. I have done some 1000 yrd. shooting and once you are on target it is not that hard to keep it there as long as conditions are not changing to much but 1440 yrds. is "outstanding" as Ray stated. I did not think that the M1 Bullet was even stable at that range.

[raymeketa]

WWI snipers would have been using the M1906 ammunition, not the M1. The maximum range was 3300 to 3400 yards although the effective range would have been quite a bit less. The remaining velocity at 1440 yards would have been about 750 fps, certainly enough to put the hurt on anything it hit.

Although most bullets become unstable at trans-sonic velocities, some do not. Otherwise we'd never be able to shoot at the extreme distances.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Did WW1 Marine A5 Snipers have spotters with them to help Dial them in on a 1440 yrd. target. That is hardly a one shot one kill range even today. I have done some 1000 yrd. shooting and once you are on target it is not that hard to keep it there as long as conditions are not changing to much but 1440 yrds. is "outstanding" as Ray stated. I did not think that the M1 Bullet was even stable at that range.

They were indeed paired as spotter and sniper in four hour shifts in non-battle operations. During the attacks of that day, no spotter was needed to see a thousand advancing men over open ground. To give you some idea of how the snipers were used, they were deployed to the NW end of the wood to take out the machine gunners prior to the last Marine advance. It worked like a charm. Unfortunately, the sniper casualty rate in Belleau Wood was just as staggering as that of other Marines.

jt

[raymeketa]

jt

Prior to WW I, Frankford Arsenal, as well as the major ammunition manufacturers of the time, loaded special ammunition for the Palma Matches. The usual load consisted of a 180 grain bullet loaded to a velocity of 2650 to 2700 fps. Acceptance standards were set at 1000 yards rather than the usual 600 yards for Cal .30 M1906. Have you seen anything that might indicate that the snipers used some of this ammunition?

Ray

[Guamsst]

No argument required, as I can back up my data with military records.
jt:1948:

It doesn't matter how right you are, someone will always want to argue when you try to state a fact....LOL

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

jt

Prior to WW I, Frankford Arsenal, as well as the major ammunition manufacturers of the time, loaded special ammunition for the Palma Matches. The usual load consisted of a 180 grain bullet loaded to a velocity of 2650 to 2700 fps. Acceptance standards were set at 1000 yards rather than the usual 600 yards for Cal .30 M1906. Have you seen anything that might indicate that the snipers used some of this ammunition?

Ray

No. From what I can glean, they used issue ammo.

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

It doesn't matter how right you are, someone will always want to argue when you try to state a fact....LOL

You are right on. I really wanted to convince myself originally. I feel confident that individual regiments may have had their own ideas how to do things. I was amazed at the extent officers followed their orders, no matter how insane they were.

jt

[ww2farmer]

I read some where that during WWII, Denver arsenal produced M2 ball and AP ammo was reguarded as the most accurate "issue" ammo, and snipers , designated marksman, etc....sought that ammo out. I personally have shot many rounds of various makes of WW2 production ball and AP ammo through my M1's and I don't shoot well enough to say if any is more accurate than the other.

[George in NH]

Were the "star" marks on the bbl. in the area that was covered by the handguard?
TIA and Merry Christmas! George in NH

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Were the "star" marks on the bbl. in the area that was covered by the handguard?
TIA and Merry Christmas! George in NH

There were no star (turtle) stamps at that time (WWI). The rifles are identified by serial number and some very unique markings. Probably the most faked 03's going. I have never seen a real one for sale on the net. More A5 "sniper" scopes have been sold on the net than there were sniper rifles. I have no idea why people keep paying outrageous prices for those things. I suspect very few of the real ones survived the war (<<100). Of the modified A5's, less than 100 were ever in combat, and only 1 of those rifles is known (to me) to exist.

jt