Need Help to salvage a M3

[Barryeye]

Gentlemen. I have just returned from the December meeting of the New Zealand Antique & Historical Arms Association. (Wellington branch).
Whilst I was there another member turned up with a cardboard box of bit and pieces, saying that he was having a clear out. Like bees to honey we flocked around him. Most were interested in the rifle parts but it was the sad looking knife on the bottom of the box that made my heart jump. I reached in and pulled out what I immediately recognised as being an M3. Some clown had painted the M8 scabbard black. A missing leather washer had been replaced by a tied in strip of rag and the washers that remained felt a little loose. One side of the cross guard had been bent up towards the handle and then painted silver. The pommel has also been painted silver and no markings were obvious. With trepidation I pulled the blade from the scabbard. The beat up slightly rusty and stained blade appeared full length and well used. However it bore the legend U.S. M KINFOLKS,INC.
I couldn’t see the 3 that should have followed the M but I had no time to puzzle about it. I had to strike before another member recognised what I had. I asked the owner how much and he said NZ$20.00. Needless to say I did not haggle. The meeting continued and I have only just got it home and had a good chance to look at it.
I can’t be 100% sure but I think I know why the 3 in M3 is missing. Looks like the blade snapped at one time and has been welded, rather well I think, back together. The break went through where the 3 should have been.
Regardless of the possible broken blade I am thrilled with my $20.00 (U.S$16.00) purchase. I think I got a real bargain. It is now my intention to restore this old warrior to some of its former glory. Cleaning up the blade should be no real problem. The rust appears to be just surface rust. Compared to my Case M3 the blade is just a 1/8 of an inch shorter. Could be correct or just ware. Nothing I can do about that.
I would appreciate advice on the best way to straighten the cross guard without fear of breaking it.
I don’t want to remove the pommel but how can I replace the space where the missing washer was?
There is no doubt in my mind that the black paint on the scabbard is not GI. Is there away to remove it and not damage the canvas/plastic beneath?
Any advice will be much appreciated. This knife deserves some TLC.
Barry

[Barryeye]

More pictures of the Kinsfolk M3.

[Guamsst]

My personal way of handling this would be to search budk online and order a repro, the company specializes in junk and repro knives. They have a decent quality repro for sale. I'd rob whatever parts I needed off one of those. However, between price+shipping and possible government/import problems this may not work for you.

Only way I know of to straighten the crossguard without a chance of breakage is LOTS OF HEAT!! I suggest removing the leather washers first ;) You could try it cold and go slowly but you won't know if you have a problem until you hear that sickening PING!

as to the black paint, bead blasting should remove the paint with minimal damage to the plastic. There are different kinds of media to use but the glass beads I use do almost no damage at all to plastic but will strip paint and coatings quickly. This will leave a flat finish though. Ofcourse, it will look better than black paint and may not look bad with a light coat of clear varnish. You said this was the M8 not M8A1 scabbard correct? Too bad, I'd trade you just so I could try the restoration of the scabbard myself but I only have M8A1 scabbards I believe. (not into U.S. stuff much) I'd personally duracoat the scabbard in a matching original green. You would never know it was there. I can also fake parkerizing in whatever shade of grey/green you want :)

I look forward to seeing what you can get done. Only way to replace the washer without removing the pommel would be to cut a new one and epoxy it in place and thats not exactly the best.

[Barryeye]

Thank you. There are many points to ponder there. If I can salvage the cross guard I don’t need any spare parts other than a leather washer. I do already own a repro M3 and I can’t warrant destroying it for this project. I am tempted to try and straighten the cross guard cold. I will go slowly but I doubt that speed will make a difference. Fast or slow it will or will not break. If there is a”ping” you may not hear it in Texas but you might hear the words that follow it 
I have an M4 bayonet that I purchased from Ravel in Chicago over 40 years ago. Two or three washers above the cross guard had been replaced with what looks like some epoxy resin then shaped with a file. I’m told that bayonets returning from the Pacific often needed these washers replaced as they were the first to perish in the humidity. Don’t know if Ravel or the U.S. Government did this repair but the result is very serviceable. I prefer your option. I’ll give it a go if the cross guard survives.
I’ve cleaned up the blade and now have no doubt that it had once snapped and was welded back together. At best this one is going to be a display example only. I also think that the leather handle was painted black at one time. Bubba must have had a holiday in New Zealand once.
The scabbard is an M8 and well worth the US$17.00 alone if I can get the paint off or not. Just have to find someone local who does bead blasting.
I’ll keep the forum informed.

[Guamsst]

I was thinking about the bead blasting and that got me to thinking about the green scabbards, was it green plastic or only a green coating. I know it isn't the same green all the way through but never really looked into it too much. If it is just paint or a thin coating, the bead blasting will take it off too unless they use something really soft like pecan shells.

As to the handle, I would replace all the discs. If you are keeping all of the original black ones though, I'd cut some leather for the washer you need, epoxy the gap after I slip it on, clean up the epoxy and paint it black again, then whack it a few times with a butter knife to add soem petina. Petina is where all the value is at ;) ....LOL Should make it look fairly original and for the price, you'd have a displayable piece.

As to going slow on the crossguard. My experience is that going slow helps......but, you can't try the same part twice, so it could just be luck. Going slow does help make sure you are straightening it correctly and gives you a tiny chance to stop if a crack develops before a break.

GOOD LUCK. And if I find Bubba, I'll tell him off for you too...LOL

[jeremy69]

I would try Acetone to remove the paint from the scabbard. Go over it lightly and wait a few minutes for it to soften, then go back over it. The green on the scabbard is paint so blasting will remove it too. If you go slowly with the Acetone you will hopefully remove the crummy black paint and leave the green. Try to aim for a nice "patina" rather than full removal..

[Barryeye]

More good ideas. Thank you. No harm in trying the Acetone first on the back of the scabbard and if that fails try blasting. 90% plus of the washers appear fine and I'd like to keep them. They are a bit dry but I can now get between them and "feed" them. The scabbard is stamped USM8. No belt attachment. My 43 Case has a scabbard marked USM8A1. They appear the same accept this one looks like it has had a belt attachment removed. Are the late metal tipped scabbards also called M8A1s?

[Guamsst]

I currently have 4 and all are marked M8A1 and 2 have metal tips, 2 don't.

[Barryeye]

All four have belt hangers ? What vintage would they be. WWII or later? I know the metal tipped ones were the last issue.

[PhillipM]

I'd try MEK, methyl ethyl ketone, or laquer thinner before acetone. Acetone attacks some types of plastics such as acrylic aggressively. I don't know what plastic is in the fiberglass material the scabbard is made from but whatever you try, do it in an inconspicuous place first with just a little dab.

[Guamsst]

All four have belt hangers ? What vintage would they be. WWII or later? I know the metal tipped ones were the last issue.

All 4 have belt hangars. one has a leather strap instead of cloth. I figure it is a foreign job, but I know next to nothing about them. Just picked them up because the scabbards were $10ea in the bin. Grabbed the 4 best condition ones I could find.

[DRB]

All M8A1s should have the belt hanger that is what made the M8 into the M8A1. The metal tip is a post war thing no as issued WWII M8A1 would have it but it could have been added to one.

Here is a new WWII era M4 with a M8A1 in the box this is what a WWII era M8A1 would look like

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/drbecker/IMG_0307.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/drbecker/IMG_0310.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/drbecker/IMG_0308.jpg

Here is another new one by Camillus

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/drbecker/m4.jpg

[Barryeye]

Now that is one good looking M3. I have never seen one close to that standard here in New Zealand. I guess most of ours were left behind by U.S. troops on their way to and throm action in the Pacific.

[Barryeye]

Took the bull by the horns and had a go at straightening the M3s cross guard today. I put the blade low in the vice and gripped the swept up part of the guard with some pliers. Took a deep breath and pushed down. Bit more resistance then I expected but the dreaded “ping” never came. It took me six slow steps to get to an angle I approved of. Quite pleased with the result. It transforms the whole knife. I have also cleaned up the blade and got most of the paint off the cross guard and pommel.
Managed to get most of the paint off the scabbards throat. Had a go with the acetone on the body of the scabbard. I used part of a clothe soaked in the stuff. It did remove a lot of black paint but it is going to take a lot of acetone and elbow grease to get it all off. Finish beneath the paint looks very worn. Right down to the canvas in many places. I’m thinking that a repaint might be my best bet.
Will acetone be safe to use on the leather handle? I think there is black paint on it. The remaining washers are solid but dry. Any advice as to how I could treat them?

[Guamsst]

Looks good, glad it didn't break on you.

I would think the acetone would turn the paint into more of a dye on the leather. Ofcourse, the leather is probably already dyed so it probably doesn't matter.

[Barryeye]

The clean up goes on. I was right there was a layer of black paint on the leather washers. Acetone did remove it but there appears to be another layer of green paint under the black. This layer dose not react to the acetone as the black layer did. Regular paint stripper does not appear to harm wood. How would it affect leather? The green paint can be removed by scraping with my pocket knife. Would this be the better option? I’ve come to a conclusion that at one time in its life this knife came into the possession of some children. No adult in their right mind could desecrate such a knife by painting it green, black and silver and bending the cross guard to look like some Hollywood pirates knife. It will never be a prize specimen of an M3 but I hope I can give it back some dignity.

[Guamsst]

Oh, you would be surprised at the ignorance of some adult children...LOL As to the green paint, I don't know how paint stripper would affect leather but since they recommend you don't get it on your skin I would hesitate to use it. Maybe try some on a piece of scrap leather first.

[Barryeye]

Good point. The scrape method is looking better.

[Dan Shapiro]

Re: scraping. Have you thought of using a fine grit sandpaper? Place the blade in a padded vise, use a strip of sandpaper so it rounds itself around the washers on the handle.

[Barryeye]

I have since tried to clean up the leather with my pocket knife and some sand paper as suggested. Took a few hours with the knife but I managed to get about 80% of the paint off. Then the sandpaper was a good help but only removed the high spots. Had I persisted I could have got more paint off but remove too much leather in the process. The dry old leather reacted to the sand paper faster than say wood might have.
Another hour with the knife and the job should be done. Then a light sand.