Making Sniper out of USMC marked 1903

[Fsbrb2]

I have a 1903 with barrel marked USMC 7-41, hatcher hole, and other indications of a true Marine 1903. I want to build a replica Marine Sniper using the Leatherwood Marine scope which is being released. My goal is to have a 1903 shooter to use in local competitions. My father had a 1903 that had a civilian scope and I would like to have my own with period correct accessories or at least correct replica in the case of the scope.

Any suggestions, comments, or guidance on this would be helpful.

[older than dirt]

That doesn`t stand for US MARINE CORP. I think it means us marine corp, & I think they made barrels. Some of the other guys will chime in & set it stright I`m sure.

[Floyd1977]

It was a Sedgley barrel made on contract for the US Marine Corps.

[6thMARDIV]

What's your serial number ? If it were me I wouldn't use a genuine USMC piece.

[Griff Murphey]

Yeah why alter a genuine one? Get a sporter already drilled and tapped and restore that. Your altered real USMC rifle would always be a fake after you D&T it.

[cplnorton]

A Sedgley barrel 03 with other marine characteristics runs around $800 to a $1000 dollars depending on condition and wear.

If you drill it, the rifle is worth about $400.

If you want, I might be interested in buying your rifle and then you could use the money to buy one already drilled to convert it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have a 1903 with barrel marked USMC 7-41, hatcher hole, and other indications of a true Marine 1903. I want to build a replica Marine Sniper using the Leatherwood Marine scope which is being released. My goal is to have a 1903 shooter to use in local competitions. My father had a 1903 that had a civilian scope and I would like to have my own with period correct accessories or at least correct replica in the case of the scope.

Any suggestions, comments, or guidance on this would be helpful.

What do you want to know?

jt

[Jim S.]

Sorry I posted a reply under the wrong thread.

[Fsbrb2]

My rifle has the Sedgley barrel as described and hatcher hole on the right side of the receiver. It looks like the bolt was replaced as it is marked with an 'R' and the buttplate does not have the 'Marine' stippling. I disassembled the rifle and the packing grease is still present. What is the best way to remove this?

[Jim In Oklahom]

There seems to be an elitist bias, maybe even a phobia about drilling and tapping M1903 rifles for M48 sights or for scope blocks to mount M1941 USMC type scope sights. One comment was that D & T made an $800 rifle worth $400. INMHO a M1903 in nice condition that has M1941 type scope blocks mounted in the correct locations and secured with apprpriate screws would be a $1000 rifle. If you have a nice $800 M1903 that has been devalued by the addition of that kind of scope blocks I might go higher than $400 for that rifle.

I have two SA M1903s from the late 1920s, both re-barreled in 1944 (SA & HS) , both with Hatcher holes, that have been "converted" to M1941 "status" with the addition of the correct scope blocks and the alteration of the handguard to accomodate the front block. Both have "C" stocks and pristine bores. My gunsmith used a Brownell drill jig to give perfect placement of the blocks. Both rifles now have 10X Unertl target scopes that make them illegal for CMP Sniper Matches. The plans are for at least one of them have a Hi-Lux Malcolm 8x scope in the near futire.

Jim in Oklahom
G-3-29, USMC 1945

[twh]

Taking an original or correct configuration 03 and drilling and tapping for a scope of any kind will severly decrease the value of the rifle. The value of the sum of the parts might increase but my guess would be your maket for selling the whole rifle would be limited. Analogous to buying a rifle and spending a ton of money correcting it and then expecting that someone will pay you what you have in it or what an original unrestored rifle would cost. If you wanted to embark on a project as outlined above from the financial perspective it would make more sense to start off with a typical mixed parts rebuilt rifle. No matter where you start the end result is worth no more than the sum of the parts.

[Art]

To what twh said; USMC rifles are virtually never "all original." They were pretty much all rebuilt and more than once, that "Hatcher hole" shows it was in the shop in the 1930s. Actual USMC rifles also bring a premium. If your rifle is indeed a Model 1903 that was used by the Marine Corps I personally would find another "mixmaster"rifle to convert. With that said, it is your rifle and as long as you know the facts regarding value and stuff it is entirely your decision as to what to do with your rifle.

[elfego baca]

When i was a young buck i bought a DCM 1903A3 for $14.50 and started to sporterize it. I never did finish the project and sold it a few years later. Fast forward a few decades and i found some replacements - both Remingtons - a 1903 and a 1903A3. I enjoy shooting cast bullets in both. http://tinypic.com/m/eqsd45/1

[Nate]

I have been thrown off a forum for saying this, but here I go. Defacing a proper M1903 to produce a phony anything is reprehensible to me as well as reconstituting a drill rifle to shooting specifications. I say this with the guilt of having done similar atrocities when I was younger and a lot stupider and have regretted having done so ever since. Hopefully, I have since made up for these transgressions by buying the few documented examples of M1942, 03A4 and M1Ds that I could afford and have made sure that they end up in a collection where they will be preserved. I have collected US firearms for 60 years, am a old grouch and can't understand clones anymore than I get FaceBook.

[Jim In Oklahom]

Conventional wisdom seems to be that any alteration of a M1903 rifle is wrong. Maybe it's the conventional wisdom that's wrong. Two things to consider:

1. The USMC in the early 1940s altered many match grade M1903A1 rifles by the addition of scope blocks on the receiver ring and on the barrel, and the modification of the handguard so that the front scope block was accessible for the front scope mount. With the addition of a Unertl 8X target scope sight the rifles were then designated as M1941. The rifles were used in WWII and in some later conflicts. I have a photo of two Marines from my 6th Mar Div using M1941 rifles on Okinawa in 1945.

2. The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) sponsors Vintage Sniper Matches which are fired by two man teams at 300 and 600 yards at targets that require accurate rifles with adequate sights. To be used in that match a rifle must be of the same configuration as that of an as-issued rifle used by some country's military. M1903A4 rifles with correct scope sights are usable in that match. But the low power of the sights and possibly the accuracy of the rifle make a M1903A4 not the best choice of a United States sniper rifle. In order to use a M1903 in the match it must be modified to mount an 8X target scope with external sight adjustment. Original M1941 rifles are rare and very costly. An original Unertl 8X scope sight is also costly. Recently a commercially manufactured 8X target scope sight has become available. That scope sight makes it legal to use a suitably altered Model1903 rifle in CMP Vintage Sniper matches. The newly availble 8X scope sight seems to be equal in optical quality to the original 8X Unertl scopes.

Aside from the scope sights you would be hard pressed to differentiate two M1903 rifles that I have from M1941 rifles modified at the Quantico Marine base in 1941. My rifles do not have the Star Gauge punch on the muzzle. The scope blocks are the same "O" and "E" blocks, correctly located, as were used on M1941 rifles. Both rifles have the Hatcher hole so it's likely that the rifles were Marine rifles at some time. Both rifles have been rebarreled with 1944 barrels (HS and SA) and the bores are pristine. One has a GI "C" stock while the the other has a SARCO "C" stock. One rifle has a Unertl 10 X target scope sight while its mate has a "Wm. Malcolm USMC Sniper" 8X scope sight, which makes it legal to shoot in CMP Vintage Sniper matches.

Maybe not to a collector, but to a shooter, several hundred dollars have been added to the value of each of the two rifles with the alterations that make it possible to mount target scope sights on them.

[jgaynor]

Jim, I have a few comments.

1. The USMC modified perhaps somewhere on the order of 800 to 1000 M1903A1 rifles with 8x Unertl Scopes for sniper rifles. This was done after the Marine hierarchy turned down the original recommendation of a Winchester Model 70 w/ 8X Unertl Telescope.

2. About 1700 Unertl Scopes were delivered before the contract was cancelled in February of 1944 at the order of the Commandant.. The reason cited was the combination "had not proven effective in combat".
At the same time he directed his subordinates to obtain 1000 M1903A4's from the Army when the M1903A1's were exhausted.

3. Their is a comprehensive file of USMC Sniper documentation available reproduced in Senich and through SRS nowhere in that documentation is their a reference to "M1941". Clark Campbell suggests the term may have been coined to refer to the Winchester Model 70/ Unertl combination.

4. Most of the worlds sniper rifles in the WW2 era were equipped with telescopes having 2.5X to 4X magnification. The Germans fielded a few 6X scopes and of course the Marines had the Unertl. But the advantage of higher magnification in a sniper rifle is questionable (at least in the equipment of 60 to 70 years ago). Higher power equalled a narrower field of view and dimmer images at dawn and dusk (some of the specific problems cited with the Unertl). Furthermore a telescope employing a loose sliding mount on the battlefield is ay a disadvantage but then we had found this out in WW1 with the Winchester A5 equipped '03's.

It will be interesting to see what happens in this years CMP matches. Will a modernized version shoot the pants off the competition..who knows?

Regards,
Jim

[blackhawk2]

Jim, Where the 1000 A4 delivered to the USMC....Where there any additional markings added to the rifle to denote USMC lineage..Is the USMC Serial number block known....Thank you for sharing your knowledge...regards....

[Jim In Oklahom]

Jim,

Good comments.

S E M P E R F I

Jim

[6thMARDIV]

Jim,

What Regt. of the 6thMARDIV ? GrandDad was with the 4th Marines on Okinawa.

Scott

[Jim In Oklahom]

I was a rifleman in G-3-29 of the 6th Mar Div.

On this date, June 9, in 1945, my 70th day on the Island of Okinawa, I was hit for the 3rd and last time with a rifle bullet that hit both lower legs. No helicopters in those days. Six hours later I arrived at the 6th Medical Battalion hospital somewhere around Naha. I was somewhat low on blood, but the Marine in the other rack on that 4X4 "ambulance" died on the way.

On the next day I was hoisted over the side of the Hospital Ship RELIEF and had some of the best duty I had in the Marine Corps on the way to an Army hospital on Saipan.

I recovered and rejoined my Company in time to go to Tsingtao, China after the war ended.

The Okinawa battlefield is no more. Where I was wounded the last time is now the site of an Avis Car Rental.

S E M P E R F I

Jim

[Johnny in Texas]

Thank you all for your service!!!

[Greg Ficklin]

Assuming that any modification to a legitimate USMC rifle will hurt it's pedigree, at the same time you will spend a lot of money to make the rifle's collector value to go down. If you can document that the rifle is indeed a USMC with sales slip, or serial number research, it would indeed be a crying shame to convert when there are better options that are cheaper, resulting in a rifle that in looks and performance are identical or better than an original.
If you want a Marine sniper clone, the best option is to buy one from Creedmore Sports complete with Hi-Lux 8X scope.
These look amazing, and shoot as good as they look. No scrounging for parts, no assembly required, no chance of getting burned, or ruining a project (collector) rifle. For $2000 you get what you pay for, and they will stand behind it.
If you build one from a bare receiver, it will cost you around $1500 or more. A clone, is a clone, is a clone. If you clone a USMC rifle into a 1941 Sniper, it is still a clone. The cheapest way to go is to shop for the cheapest 1903, use the wood, and barrel that comes with it, and attach the scope. This will probably be around $1200 by the time you fire the first shot, assuming you go with the Hi-Lux 8X.

[jgaynor]

Jim, Where the 1000 A4 delivered to the USMC....Where there any additional markings added to the rifle to denote USMC lineage..Is the USMC Serial number block known....Thank you for sharing your knowledge...regards....

I don't think so. FWIW SRS records show a number of A4's in USMC Inventory at various museums etc and some of Peter Senich's books show depict USMC A4's in combat photographs.
Regards,
Jim

[blackhawk2]

Sir, thank you for the info....regards....

[cplnorton]

There was a Marine local to us that always claimed he was a sniper on Okinawa and had an A4 with a weaver. He said it was a horrible scope and his would fill with water from the condensation of the heat. He said he tried his best to drain it every morning.

I always figured he was mistaken and he had an 03, not an A4.

It's interesting to know he might have been correct. I didn't know the Marines used the A4.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The Marines have 3-A4's in the Field Museum at Quantico. I have their serial numbers.

jt

[blackhawk2]

Jim, Does the 3-A4's in Museum, have any identifing marks to denote USMC lineage....thank you....regards

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

They appear to be typical A4's, with none of the usual things to indicate Marine linage. Of course they are behind glass, so one does not get to examine them closely.

jt

[kaleu]

Sir , With your knowledge of the subjet I hope you can ans this question I have been trying to find . The first use of the M1903-A1 with the unertl scope in WW2 . The best I can find is 3rd Marine Div Bouganville Nov 43. By no means am I trying to steal this site just caught your name here . Thanking you in advance , kaleu.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Check your messages.

jt