Norman Ford Texan scope

[paul v]

Can anyone enlighten me on why the Norm ford texan rifle scope (produced from 1946 to 1952) is not allowed in the vintage sniper competition? It's nearly an exact copy of the lyman alaskan. The copies of the weaver on the Gibbs rifles, repro M84's, and the new Malcon Leatherwoods are allowed, why not the Norman Ford?. Thanks Paul

[da gimp]

Go the CMP site & ask mr orrin, you might post this on the Firing Line board here, more might see it.

[paul v]

Thanks da gimp. This same question was posted on the ask Orest forum a year ago and was never answered. I was hoping someone here may have some insight. I'll check the CMP rules when they come out for 2012.

[jgaynor]

Why is a Weaver K3 ok on a No. Mk 1 (T) not not on an M1903A4?
(Someone should inform them that the Weaver 330C and M73B1 were 2.75x not 2.5X at least if you can believe the Weaver Factory):eek:

Is a Norman Ford or a Stith Bear Cub more wrong than a Weaver K4 on a WW1 Gew M98!!:icon_rolleyes:

Then there is the totally bogus terminology like M1941A1:eusa_wall:

Regards,
Jim

[paul v]

Jim, this is exactly where I was going to go with this tread. Some of it doesn't make any sense

[TW56]

Thanks da gimp. This same question was posted on the ask Orest forum a year ago and was never answered. I was hoping someone here may have some insight. I'll check the CMP rules when they come out for 2012.

I asked a rules question on the CMP web page by sending the question to customer service e-mail address. I received an e-mail reply with a couple of days from Mark Johnson
CMP Deputy Chief Operating Officer.

TW56

[Johnny in Texas]

I think part of the problem is the folks writing the rules don't know sniper rifle history.

[madsenshooter]

Quite a few of the German scopes should be legal on the early German bolt actions, as they used about anything they could get their hands on in WWI and mounted them anyway they could. If duct tape would have been available then, they'd have probably used it.

[paul v]

Looks like there are no changes to the rules for 2012. SOL again.

[jgaynor]

Yes Paul, one would have thought they would have at least fixed some of the errors and misspellings. I still think your point about the Norman Ford is a good one.


Regards,
Jim

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Paul, I found this on page 71 of the rules, here is how you petition to use your scope: "9.11.2 Rifl es
Rifl es must comply with Rule 6.4.3. Anyone who wishes to use a sniper rifl e
or scope in a CMP-sanctioned Vintage Sniper Rifl e Match that is not listed in
Table 3 may contact CMP Competitions (competitions@odcmp.com, 419-635-
2141, ext. 1114) and request a ruling on whether it is an eligible rifl e or scope.
Documentation regarding the rifl e or scope and its use for military sniper purposes
must be provided with every request." Here's the link to the rules: http://www.thecmp.org/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

[paul v]

Thanks Jim, it's worth a shot. Paul

[PhillipM]

Don't get in a hurry for a reply. Mark and Orest were at the Oklahoma games and I presume headed to the Georgia games.

[Peconga]

Here is a link to the post on the CMP Forums where I originally posed the question about the Norman Ford Texan over a year ago http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=40393 A careful reading of the various replies in sequence should give you a pretty good idea of the amount of "consideration" given to the proposal to date.

To Jim in Salt Lake thank you for posting the official process for forwarding a request for ruling, since it differs slightly from the instructions provided to me by Orest Michaels and Mark Johnson (although they may in fact be the same if the "competitions" email address is simply an alias that forwards to Orest and Mark anyway).

To paul v if you plan to submit a formal request for ruling to the Committee, you have my permission to use the photo I have linked on the CMP Forum as part of your request (with proper attribution of course; please contact me for details and the original URL). You also have my permission to use the description or any other language from those posts if you wish to leverage them for your request. Good Luck and I hope you go forward with it! Please let us know how you fare.

[paul v]

Peconda, I'm considering sending in a request. From Mark Johnson's response on the CMP forum, it doesn't sound like they are very open to changes on this subject. Paul

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Hey Paul, I'd try anyway. I would definitely make the point about the Texan being a "clone" of the Alaskan. If you can present the specs of both and show how similar they are, with the pictures, I think you'd have a good argument. I would compare your situation to what they already have in the rules for the "1903A1." Your situation is comparable to the rules allowing the use of pretty much any Lyman, Fecker, Unertl, Malcolm scope so long as they're 8X or less for the "1903A1." You can argue a similar situation for the "1903A4." An email is free.....

[jgaynor]

Paul.

I just copied this post from the CMP Forum. The thread is current-something like Repro "US M1941A1" with 8x Unertl.... (the underlining and italics are mine):



"I wrote to Hi-Lux and passed on our comments on the mounts issues. Here is Hi-Lux' response.

Hi,

Thank you for your e-mail. Actually we did not copy the original 8X scope, because the optics that was used at the old time has no comparison with the today’s new optics. We need to redesign the whole optical system to make the scope that is capable to see a clear image at the low light situation. Because of the different optical systems, our scope cannot be the same length as the original one. That won’t be a problem to use. Our mounting system is getting very good now after several production run. We track this scope on the collimator , at the 7.2” spacing between the front and rear mounts, the each click is exactly the ¼ MOA adjustment and it is repeatable. Meantime we try to improve the finish of our steel mounts. Most people now are making the mount aluminum. But we try to stay to make the steel mounts. We sell the scope, mount, recoil spring and the bases for 1903 a1 as a package deal. We give the accessories free with the scope. This scope is one of the most difficult scopes to make in the market. That’s is why today there is no one to make this kind scope any more. We are still learning how we can make this scope better. We will stay on top of the quality and try to make it better. We will have a new shipment coming in May. We have already improved quality. I hope the people who are loving to use this kind vintage style scope would support us and give us a little bit more credit for making this kind scope available again. If you still have any questions about this scope, please feel free to contact us. We will try our best to continue making the good quality 8X scope. Thank you for your support.


Best Regards,


Hi-Lux, Inc."

It will be interesting to see if and how CMP responds to this information. For my money should they concern themselves mainly with creating a reasonably level playing field for the competitors.



Regards
Jim

[paul v]

Thanks Jim, I'm still debating petitioning it, but appreciate the info. I will be going to be in the south store this July (my yearly pilgrimage) and I may bring this up with Orest personally if given the chance. Paul