Brutality in Basic Training

[blackhawknj]

This topic occasionally comes up in conversation with non-veterans or prospective recruits.
My examples concent the Army, veterans of other services are welcome to add theirs.
1. Fort Dix, Summer of 1964. One veteran said there was a fatso in his platoon. At every meal, one of the DIs would follow him down the chow line. No bread or potatoes, no desserts-the kid
lost 50 pounds. Another alumnus of Fort Dix from the same time told me the "Biggest Loser" in his company lost 55 pounds.
2. Fort Dix, Fall of 1966. Another Fort Dix alumnus said they had a fatso who was a real loudmouth redneck-and an NG (National Guard) to boot. They would be standng in the chow line, one of the black or Hispanic DIs would tap him on the shoulder saying "Let's go for a run."
They'd come back 15-20 minutes later, the DI barely breaking a sweat, the loudmoth all red in the face, gasping for breath, on more than one occasion heaving his guts out.
3. Fort Dix, Summer of 1974. One DI had to deal with-"The Gasser"! One recruit who was constantly passing gas and stunk to High Heaven. He gave them their gas mask training early, gave them a big pompous speech about how only the President jas the authority to initiate gas warfare but one individual has arrogantly taken it up himself to initiate it, etc.. He told them "If One of you detects this individual launching gas you will shout "GAS!" and he has to put on his gas mask and 20 25 pushups! If I or any other the other cadre detect it first YOU WILL ALL PUT ON YOUR GAS MASKS AND DO 25 PUSHUPS!!" The next day he dropped them 4 times, one of the other DIs droped them 4 times, one of the officers dropped them once, one of the other cadre dropped them once-while they were in the chow line.
4. Fort McClellan, 1980-One veteran said he arrived for MP OSUT, found out he was classified as a "Heavy Drop"-AKA a fatboy. He arrived 6'4", 240 pounds, left 12 weeks later, 6"4", 180 pounds.
5. Fort Jackson, the 1980s. Several veterans from that period said they were restricted to the Company Area for the whole cycle, no snacks, no CARE packages from home, you ate what they put on your tray and that was it. There was a Fatboys conmpany-restricted diet and extra PT. Also I think about that time the "No Smoking in Basic" restriction took effect. Those who thought their DIs had been born yesterday saw the error of their ways.

[Ron James]

So, where does the brutality part come in, When they left basic they were lean , mean and a whole lot healthier. JMHO as a ex senior NCO or maybe my attitude is wrong?

[Dan Shapiro]

Recalling my own experience in Basic back in 1967 at Ft Ord, I never saw any "brutality". I did see a group of NCO's who were charged with turning a bunch of draftee's, enlistees and National Guardsmen into soldiers in a span of just 12 weeks.

Yeah, the 'fatties' suffered. They didn't like it, but one's I knew were proud of their appearance 12 weeks later.

First day at reception center we got haircuts. As we filed into the barber shop, I noticed a gaggle of civilians (later learned they were Congressmen) - Some officer was telling them that the recruits could look up on the wall and see photos of 6 different hair styles. The recruit would tell the barber the number of the hair style he wanted. When the Congress people left, the DI's sent everyone back in and they all got a #1.

I guess, today, that would be called "brutality".

[jon_norstog]

Second week of boot camp my foot hurt like crazy, so they let me see the medic. Medic told me there was nothing wrong, get back out on the grinder. Week seven the DI sent me back 'cause it didn't look right to him, the way I was running and marching. This time there was a doctor there who did an X-ray and diagnosed a broken bone, what they call a "march fracture." By then, inspite of the constant beating, the fracture was halfway healed.

By then most of the drill and running was over and we were in classes. It really hurt, but I kept up with my company. It was one of those deals, they punished the whole company if one boot failed to perform. No way was I gonna fall behind.

So they wouldn't let me march in the graduation drill. By then I would have preferred finishing the whole thing out. The DI was an old Lifeboat Station Boatswain's Mate One. He was so bent about the deal he turned in his resignation - too bad, 'cause he was a good DI. I would have told him to stay with it.


jn

[Garden Valley]

Well .....,lets see

There was the guy who was a screw-up and two DI's put him in a wall locker and beat on the locker with baseball bats for about 20 minutes. He came out a little dazed but more attentive. Does that count?

Then there was the crud of the platoon who was repeatedly visibly dirty and stunk so the Platoon Commander sent him to the showers with the two house mouses and their scrub brushes with instructions not to bring him back until he was clean all over. He really looked rosy when they brought him back. Does that count?

Then there was the time the Platoon Commander was irritated with us and the entire platoon did 1000 up-and-on-shoulders with the M14. Does that count?

And then there was the time a poor performing recruit was placed in the front-leaning-rest position on the squad bay floor and an unsheathed M6 bayonet was placed upright centered under his chest and he was admonished not to relax. Does that count?

I don't believe monitoring food intake at the mess hall even comes close to brutality.

[rider]

At Ft. Knox in '72, a couple of Drill Sregeants in our basic training company used trainee "enforcers" to to beat and physically intimidate the recalcitrant trainees. At the end of out training cycle, these same Drill sergeants were busted for personally beating trainees in the latrine. Those two were just back from Nam and whacked-out. About a year later at my permanent station, I saw one of the "enforcers", and when he recognized me he was definitely afraid - not of me but that I might rat him out to his new homies.

[Art]

The stuff in the OP was fairly mild compared to the treatment in my Basic Training. There can be a fine line between the hazing (yes I did use that word) necessary to prepare soldiers, as much as possible, for the realities of combat and sadistic brutality. I don't think this country has ever had the kind of truly brutal training Japanese soldiers were subject to in the past or Russian soldiers are today nor do I think it's necessary. The stuff mentioned in the OP and most of the posts is not "brutality" in my view though rider's does, in my opinion, cross the line.

[BOB LOUGHLIN]

Basic Training FT.POLK, May,1963,North Post (Tiger Land ). We all learned to eat a light breakfast. Two mile run right after eating. A lot of T shirts changed out on those early mornings. The most terrifing moments I recall was the first week being put on Pig Patrol. Tiger Land had not been used for a very long time and the wild hogs had taken the place over. There I was, walking around the baracks with a four foot broom handle, about three AM when I came face to face with one or maybe two of those displaced kridders. They grunted and I almost craped my pants. They ran off and I ran to find the OD. He was laughing his butt off. To this day I believe the DI's had herded the pigs my way. Some things a guy never forgets. BOB.

[Hal O'Peridol]

This topic occasionally comes up in conversation with non-veterans or prospective recruits.
My examples concern the Army, veterans of other services are welcome to add theirs.

4. Fort McClellan, 1980-One veteran said he arrived for MP OSUT, found out he was classified as a "Heavy Drop"-AKA a fatboy. He arrived 6'4", 240 pounds, left 12 weeks later, 6"4", 180 pounds.



Are you sure you aren't talking about me here? Got to Ft McCellan, MP OSUT 12 May 1980, weighed almost exactly 240 pounds. And I am 6'4" tall.

First breakfast I went down the line, had a black coffee on my tray, a slice of dry toast with peanut butter on it, and a banana. SSG Brumfield made me put the banana back. This was my breakfast for the next six weeks of basic.

At the end of OSUT (Echo Co, 10th TNG Bn) I weighed 180 pounds. Lost so much weight I was entitled to an entirely new basic issue of uniforms, including boots! I went from a size 12 boot down to a 10 1/2 wide.

Brutality? didn't think so then, nor now. The DIs had a job, to whip us into something approaching a soldier in a short period of time. And that included how you handled stress and deprivation. If you couldn't hack it in Basic, how could you in combat?

[phil441]

I joined the AF in early '61. In Basic we had a guy in the barracks who never showered and stank to hi-heaven. Our TI instructed two of the group to take him to the shower and clean him up with the old stiff bristle brushes used for everything needing cleaning. When he came out he (still wearing fatigues) was clean. The guy never made it thru basic, but we were all grateful to the TI for making it so we were able to breathe in there.
There were two fellows who just couldn't get along. The TI had us clean out an empty room usually reserved for an Assistant TI and line the walls with spare mattresses. He put those two guys in there and told them to get it out out of their systems and locked the door behind them. After a lot of noise finally died down one of the guys knocked on the door. They both looked like hell but there was no more discourse in the barracks after that. One of those guys had his head rammed through the sheet rock wall but it was fixed by base maintenance people who were told by the TI that a couple of his stupid recruits had knocked the hole while moving furniture.
We all smiled at our little secret.

[Art]

Basic Training FT.POLK, May,1963,...... The most terrifing moments I recall was the first week being put on Pig Patrol. Tiger Land had not been used for a very long time and the wild hogs had taken the place over. There I was, walking around the baracks with a four foot broom handle, about three AM when I came face to face with one or maybe two of those displaced kridders. They grunted and I almost craped my pants. They ran off and I ran to find the OD. He was laughing his butt off. To this day I believe the DI's had herded the pigs my way. Some things a guy never forgets. BOB.

Ah those piney woods rooters, I remember them well. We were on the bivouac part of basic and I had guard duty one night when a whole herd of them came through the bivouac area around midnight. Mostly they just checked things out and left, all except one that poked his snout into the tent of an old boy named Roberson who smacked him on the snout with an intrenching tool.

I was there from June - August 1966. It was brutally hot. I was used to it having grown up spending a lot of time in the outdoors both in southeast Texas and Louisiana but it even got to me once though I never went down. Those boys from the midwest had a lot of problems. An ambulance followed every column on the march and periodically they would have to load one of those cooler climate boys in when they dropped from the heat.

By the way, you know how to tell when a piney woods rooter is ready for harvest? It's when you pick him up by the ears and his head is balanced by the rest of his body.

[Tex]

Instead of using scuz brushes to "scuz" the deck our drill instructor made us use recruit Perkins as a scuz brush because he wasn't scuzzing fast enough.

Same drill instructor tomohawked a "moon beam" into the back of our first squad leader at the rifle range early one morning.

Same drill instructor drug a recruit from the showers using the recruits belt that he had drapped around his neck because the recruit was taking too long showering. Most everyone else showered and shaved in 2 minutes or less. This recruit took 2 minutes and 20 seconds to do so. That additional 20 seconds cost him.

Same drill instructor made one recruit low-crawl under the racks in the squadbay while we were field daying. Brand new cammies + bleach water = Paris Island snow cammies. You could always tell an old "salt" by how faded his cammies were. We told the recruit that he was the saltiest MF'r on the island because his cammies were WHITE!

Same drill instructor made us drink 2 full canteens of water after evening chow. Of course, that's impossible to do on an already full stomach. Needless to say, once the first recruit threw up it was a chain reaction.

Fresh out of the rack at 0500, standing on line, recruit Ridgeway had to piss so bad that he was shaking like a dog $hitting a peach seed so the drill instructor left him at the POS until he pissed all over himself. To make matters worse,nhe made him swab his own piss with his cammies. That smelled good after a day in the Paris Island heat.

Foot locker trays dumped out the "porthole", M-16's tomohawked down the center of the squadbay with handguards flying everywhere (same rifles we qualified with by the way!) Man, the memories one makes in boot camp!

[Guamsst]

I just remember the patented Air Force IQ test. They made you carry your locker key around your neck and you could not take it off for any reason. They would wait for you to lean over and unlock your locker. At this point the key cannot be removed from the lock. They would then jump all over you and demand you come to attention. Lots of folks ended up with odd bruises around their necks from the chain as they tried to snap to attention while chained to their locker. If you did not have your head entirely up your butt, you simply locked the lock, removed the key and came to attention. My TI preferred to make us suffer through our own actions. My cousin went through basic a year or so before I did and his TI preferred to just well, pick on them is what I would call it. He had a guy who liked to sing so he stuffed him in a wall locker and kept putting quarters through the vent and making the guy sing...LOL

We had a guy recycled to our flight from a different squadron. He recounted the horrors of having to clean the latrines with a toothbrush for reading a comic book on door guard duty. We laughed and said he had it easy. In our squadron they did everything by the book with no petty nonsense. Any violations on door guard meant an automatic recycle of two weeks. So, get caught with that comic book and go from week 4 of basic, to week 2. He almost pooped himself. I would take the latrine cleaning over an extra two weeks of basic any day. I guess to most people, anything they don't enjoy is brutality.

[BOB LOUGHLIN]

Art, If I remember right, we were alowed to hit the beer garden in our third week. Had a over night pass around the sixth week. Not to bad at all. When I got to FT.Gorden I thought I had died and gone to heaven. No Inspections, no KP, and no guard doty. Just class and could get a pass from the First Shirt any week-end. The only thing that kept me from being a lifer was my new bride. I came back from Korea and met the gal. Got married 30 days before I E.T.S. out. 46 years to the same gal and it gets better every day. Bob.

[comm pogue]

I don't think this is brutality, don't think they could get by with it today. i still laugh when i think about it. we where at Edson range in july 68 and we still had PT after snapping in, went on runs in the hills close by. the senior DI would yell "snake guards out" and all the black recruits had to drop out and run in the sagebrush along side of the platoon. i will never forget the eyes of some of those guys the fisrt time we did it. never did see a snake in bootcamp, did see them later in ITR at San Onofre......Semper Fi

[Former Cav]

1965 at Ft. Knox, the DI brought a B.C.T. guy into his room and we heard some bouncing around. The trainee came out with a "new attitude".
I never had any problems. Our D.I. would take us for a morning run and he'd run BACKWARDS the whole way, he'd even run around our platoon while we were running and scream at us and blow smoke in our faces! One KEWL D.I. Name was Carrol Davis at C-9-3 FT. Knox from Jun through Aug 65.

[RCK]

1962 at Fort Knox, July to Sept. in A-12-3. My buddy's platoon DI was E5, Sgt Roy. His favorite harassment was done after everything was squared away about nine o'clock, then he played "over and under". Each platoon member took his loaded foot locker and hoisted up over the top bunk, followed it, then pushed it under the next lower bunk and followed it till the whole platoon had made it over and under around the whole bay. I remember looking up some nights at his barracks after lights out and they were still at it. Roy was busted to PFC a few months later.

[P. Greaney]

Learning how to eat a proper diet and exercising is not by any stretch of the imagination, brutality.

[Guamsst]

Learning how to eat a proper diet and exercising is not by any stretch of the imagination, brutality.

It is nowadays.

[martinp]

I remember close order drill with loaded foot lockers, at Parris Island in 1974, ahhh memories

[m1ashooter]

Oh the horror of it all. Once at Officers Basic at Vandenberg AFB the bus we were riding in broke down and we had a walk a bit.

[Nick Riviezzo]

I went to FT. Dix,NJ for Basic in 1963. I remember a NY "tough guy" Had everybody snowed that he was a Golden Gloves Champ until a smaller,by 25-30 pounds,street smart black kid closed the door to their squad bay and showed mister "golden gloves" where the bear went in the buckwheat! Same idiot had a heavy beard but persisted in shaving at night. Needless to say the TAC NCOs were on him constantly about shaving.While on bivouac for range quals,mister smart a$$ was braced by the Field 1st. Sgt. about not shaving in the morning. About 4 words out of smart a$$es mouth and the meeting adjourned to behind a nearby bush where after "falling down" several times the miscreant was observed "shaving" with a rock!After several hours of rubbing his face with the rock he was thoroughly convinced that a morning shave with a blade was MUCH better! Was that brutality? I don't think so. I think it was the Military establishment re-establishing the "pecking order".I wonder if Mr.Ravis [not his REAL name] still has his shaving rock? Nick

[Griff Murphey]

I don't remember any brutality at all in going through Army ROTC advanced Camp at Fort Sill, 1970. I remember being very hot and thirsty and no water, and when we had water, it was often so over-chlorinated it burned when it went down. Loved that red Kool Aide made with that hyper chlorinated water. Burned so good!

We did almost have a big fight with the company one street over, Delta. They did not like some of our guys peeing in the alley between the two companies. E tools were unfolded and matters came to near boiling point. Strangely the Cadre was uninvolved no MP's either.

We got away with murder avoiding PT. Cadre didn't bother to watch us after the first few sessions. We'd double time around the corner and go to route step as soon as we were out of sight. Once that got going that was that.

I wish I could go back at age 21 and do it again... It would be a vacation... Fire those 105's, the 90 and 106 reckless, M-79, M-60, M-14, '16, .45... Toss Mike 26 hand frags....John Wayne around blazing away with blanks! I was too stressed back then to enjoy it; I thought it was all real important... Back then.

[Trap4570]

We were issued M-16's in basic and they were brand new. I was glad because there was no drills other than present arms and shoulder arms. We were told that if any weapon was found to have a scratch on it that the sh_t head that scratched it would buy it. This one guy figured if he had to buy it he could take it home. He scratched the finish all over with a coin. The DI's went ballistic and yelled at him until they tired out then formed a huddle with the Lt. and a few other DI's. We thought they had the brig in mind but they surprised everyone when they took his weapon away and gave him a rubber 'gun'. It was quite funny watching him try to qualify with two DI's standing over him while he pointed his rubber gun at the targets yelling Bang-Bang. In the end the poor fellow was cycled back through basic for another try. I wonder if he made it on the second try.

[Cecil]

I don't think this is brutality, don't think they could get by with it today. i still laugh when i think about it. we where at Edson range in july 68 and we still had PT after snapping in, went on runs in the hills close by. the senior DI would yell "snake guards out" and all the black recruits had to drop out and run in the sagebrush along side of the platoon. i will never forget the eyes of some of those guys the fisrt time we did it. never did see a snake in bootcamp, did see them later in ITR at San Onofre......Semper Fi

There was an LHA pad over at "White Beach" next to I-5. Go there May-July and you will see all the snakes you want to see for a lifetime. That thing comes alive when you step on it. I was in formation and found 6" rattlesnake sticking out from under my boot.

[amber]

Be glad it was a little guy. Did he snap at you?

[mike24d20]

Basic, Ft. Ord. Spent a lot of time on guard duty patroling the wall in Feb. Had a lil di@k head E-5 DI who thought he was god. Broke his leg in a traffic acct. 1st week of basic. Was replaced with a E-6 Dickenson who was set too retire.A real good D.I. We did a lot of duck walking an low crawling with our noses in the ground. The most brutal thing that I can remember was the rain an looking off toward the bay an seeing sail boats an sun. One time on the fireing range a kid had his bells rung when he fired out of turn an the DI's used a 2x4. Also spent my share of time on kp, an we would tell our buddies no too eat the scrambled eggs for breakfast that day=heeheehee.

[John Sukey]

The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.

[noslack327]

Ah those piney woods rooters, I remember them well. We were on the bivouac part of basic and I had guard duty one night when a whole herd of them came through the bivouac area around midnight. Mostly they just checked things out and left, all except one that poked his snout into the tent of an old boy named Roberson who smacked him on the snout with an intrenching tool.

I was there from June - August 1966. It was brutally hot. I was used to it having grown up spending a lot of time in the outdoors both in southeast Texas and Louisiana but it even got to me once though I never went down. Those boys from the midwest had a lot of problems. An ambulance followed every column on the march and periodically they would have to load one of those cooler climate boys in when they dropped from the heat.

By the way, you know how to tell when a piney woods rooter is ready for harvest? It's when you pick him up by the ears and his head is balanced by the rest of his body.

Wonderful place B/4/2 Jan 1966.

[Michael Tompkins]

Are you sure you aren't talking about me here? Got to Ft McCellan, MP OSUT 12 May 1980, weighed almost exactly 240 pounds. And I am 6'4" tall.

First breakfast I went down the line, had a black coffee on my tray, a slice of dry toast with peanut butter on it, and a banana. SSG Brumfield made me put the banana back. This was my breakfast for the next six weeks of basic.

At the end of OSUT (Echo Co, 10th TNG Bn)

Hey Hal, I was with Alpha-11 at McClellan. Sep 78 to Jan 81. Headed to W. Germany after that. Mike

[Ltdave]

it was BRUTAL when i went through Air Force Basic Training...

the vending machine in the dorm broke down and all we had for the day and half it took Civil Engineers out to fix it was warm beer...

nah, just kidding. the machine had good insulation and it stayed fairly cold as long as we didnt hold the door open too long...



this is a little on going joke a retired Air Force MSgt and i have with a co-worker who was an 2nd class Petty Officer in the Navy...

[Michaelp]

Basic at Ft Polk, 1966, Inf AIT Ft Gordon, Jump School, SF.
Never saw anything approaching any kind of brutality.
Some tough things in SF, but it was training for tough stuff.
Marine friends of mine, same period, describe actually being kicked, punched, and often mistreated.
I know them well enough to believe them.

I have talked to a couple Foreign Legion vets.
They use one word to describe their experience-"Brutal."

[dave]

It is nowadays.

Now days they just throw you out!

[Tailback]

Leonard Wood C 2-10 July 1987

I was 125 pounds soaking wet going into basic. I was in between two fat boys in my squad, they got half rations, I got double rations. I ended up gaining 10 pounds of pure muscle. They lost a lot of baby fat.

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Hey Hal, I was with Alpha-11 at McClellan. Sep 78 to Jan 81. Headed to W. Germany after that. Mike

Hey Mike, did you have a Drill Sergeant by the name of SFC Groober or Grover? He was about 6'3" and real lanky, sandy hair, and wore those issue black horned rimmed glasses.

I was in Alpha-12 at McClellan Jan 78 to Mar 78. I believe he was the Senior Drill of either Alpha-10 or Alpha-11. He was real comical and reminded several of us of the character Lester Gruber on McHale's Navy. I was one of eleven Marines assigned to Ft. Mac for MP School and they assigned all of us to Alpha 12. They said the reason they assigned us to the same platoon, was because we didn't know how to march (the Army way) and screwed everyone else up. It was definitely apparent when on the march as they had to put the Marines at the rear of formation because when the command "Mark Time, March" was given, in Marine fashion, we would halt and begin marking time as trained. If we were marching in front, and "Mark Time, March" was given, all the soldiers would continue to creep forward and pile up at the rear of the Marines, a real cluster foxtrot. We were always training in close proximity to A-10 and A-11, so SFC Grover would constantly come over to our platoon and harass or joke with the Marines. We were billeted in the old wooden barracks adjacent to the 1-2-3 Club.

Was also assigned to McClellan in May 80 for Physical Security School and Oct 83-Jan 84 for CID School. A lot of good memories as McClellan was only 60 miles from home.

Richard

[coastie]

USCG BASE ALAMEDA, March 1966.
CAKE WALK!.....Except for the run to and from the grinder-bad knees.
the only recruits behind me and half a dozen other bad runners were
guys being helped by some one else holding them up to keep on going.
Went in at 6-3, 155--former swim team-came out at 175.
Now that 2nd class yeoman with the "new" Covair Convertible....
Thank God he didn't have a platoon.
Oh, we were the first class to not have to row a boat.
All that Boy Scout merit badge wasted!

[coastie]

Now my late Father had his WWII story.
Went for Naval Air Cadet Training. After a year and some they cut the class
by 50% by drawing numbers. Late 1944?
Those worthies got sent to Great Lakes Basic and encountered a 1st class PO
Who tried to be brutal. With in a week that guy was busted and sent else where!

[5MadFarmers]

Aw, yes, initial training.

Round about nine the instructor would saunter through the place suggesting that perhaps, if it wasn't too much trouble, we'd rise and eat our breakfast. After the delightful breakfast served by our manservant George, we'd perform our morning toiletries followed by a shave and heated towel treatment by ever faithful George.
With the morning routine complete we'd either head to the green for a leasurely 18 rounds or perhaps a round of cricket if we were feeling more ambitious that morning.
After a nice lunch on the veranda, George ever dutiful, we'd spend some time with our correspondence and then prepare for the evening festivities. Suitable attired we'd head to the ballroom for an entertaining dance and drinks with the lasses from the local boarding school. Of course the sport was to separate them from their chaperones but I suspect those old gals were entertained by it all as much as we were - thus a nudge, nudge, wink, wink in their duties. Before turning in we'd have an apertif on the veranda while George heated the bedsheets for us.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering it. I have a faint memory of a haircut which resulted in a certain diminishment of my debonair factor but I suspect I've blocked that part.

Forgot the "brutality" bit. They made us do our own caddy duties! We kept a stiff upper lip throughout.