View Full Version : Mauser oberndorf sporting rifle question
I have a Mauser Oberndorf sporter that does not have a caliber marking on it. It appears to be 8x57 Mauser. It chambers the 8x57 perfectly but I dont know if it is the J round or S round. The following numbers are stamped on the gun. 240.7,85.8,2. Does this mean anything? Besides me slugging the bore does anyone know what it is? Thanks in advance
Slugging the bore will only give you half the story---bore diameter. Have you had the rilfe out of the stock? On real sporters made in Germany (and Guild rifles) the cal. and other info is usually stamped on barrel beneath the wood. The way you have typed the numbers is confusing also---in Europe a , is used in place of a . as we would use, such as 7,9 instead of 7.9----and where exactly are these numbers on the rifle?
I would agree with Dave, the numbers are somewhat confusing as written, and there should be more stamped markings on the barrel, probably under the wood. Proof markings on German commercial arms made between about 1891 and the end of WWII will vary as to both the legal requirements in force at the time of proofing AND the practice of individual proof houses. The proof houses will always include the tests and markings required under law at the time of proofing, but often they continued to include obsolete markings too. Commonly, but not always, there will be a code stamp for the proofhouse used, a number which indicates what number the gun is on the registry of the proofhouse that year ( ie. the 240th? ), the BORE diameter (7.85mm?)......and the month and year of proofing; expressed as something like 6.33 (June 1933). With that info the proofing data of a gun can be traced to a specific proofhouse, and in cases where there is no "makers mark" (common on guild guns), the ID of the shop that put it together will be learned. The number that confuses me most here is the 8,2. If the other two #'s represent the number of the gun on the proofhouse registry and the bore diameter, I'd think that the 8,2 should represent the date (August 1902?) but my way of thinking is that it would read 8.02, but then again I'm uncertain as to the accepted practice in the first decade of the 20th century. Also commonly there will be stampings indicating the proof load, but those markings too varied as requirements changed.
I looked closer but still did not find a caliber marking. There are 2 proof marking scattered on the gun. One is a crown over B and the other is a crown over U. There is 156.14 stamped under the barrel near the receiver. On the left side of the receiver is marked WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER-ORBERNDORF and the serial number of the rifle. Numbers match on the parts throughout the gun. The original number in question from my first post is stamped upside down on the left rear side of the barrel near the receiver. I think this is a Model B sporter. Nothing super fancy but a good looking well made and well balanced rifle.
sounds like a guild military conversion 98K, still oughta be a good shooter...
I looked closer but still did not find a caliber marking. There are 2 proof marking scattered on the gun. One is a crown over B and the other is a crown over U. There is 156.14 stamped under the barrel near the receiver. On the left side of the receiver is marked WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER-ORBERNDORF and the serial number of the rifle. Numbers match on the parts throughout the gun. The original number in question from my first post is stamped upside down on the left rear side of the barrel near the receiver. I think this is a Model B sporter. Nothing super fancy but a good looking well made and well balanced rifle.
Under the proof law of 1891 the official "caliber" designation of rifles was given in "gauge" (not mm), very much as was done for shotguns. Your rifle is of 156.14 guage, which according to Table III, Law of 1891 (Proof of Guns Designed to Fire Solid Projectiles) offically equates to a BORE of 7.87mm, however with your rifle the bore actually slugged out to 7.85mm when examined at the proofhouse. I assume that the observed 7.85mm figure is within the allowed + or - factors for a rifle of 156.14 gauge, otherwise they wouldn't have stamped the gauge #. The crown/B indicates a single "provisional" proof load, something that was equal to the official charge indicated on Table III, but a "home brewed" pill made up by the proofhouse. The crown/U is a "supplementary" mark certifying that the gun was still in one piece following the discharge of the proof round. There were number of changes made to the proof law between 1891 and 1939. For example from 1912, and onward, rifles were usually stamped with an actual caliber designation (ie. 9.3mm/82, 8mm/57, ect. ).
The answer may have been in front of us all the while. I believe that the German military 1st loaded the "s" bullet in 1905? Were there any commercial "S" loadings prior to that year? If not, and your rifle was indeed made in 1902, I'd have to assume that it has made for the "J" bullet.
sounds like a guild military conversion 98K, still oughta be a good shooter...
No K98k would have the Mauser name on it, Guild rifles were usually scrubbed anyway.
I believe that sporters were made after 1905 in the old J loading. It was a very good sporting round, equal to the .30-06 and loaded with several bullet weights up to 250 gr. It was very popular in Europe. And hunters are very reluctent to give up calibers they have used for years. There were no military rifles made in the J loading after 1905 however.
Have a 98K sporter marked Waffenfabrik Steyr,Austria, in calibre .30-06, double set triggers, early Lyman long slide rear peep,originally wore a Mannliher stock, the old gent I got it from had it built in Austria prior to WWII.....he was attached to our embassy
I believe that sporters were made after 1905 in the old J loading. It was a very good sporting round, equal to the .30-06 and loaded with several bullet weights up to 250 gr. It was very popular in Europe. And hunters are very reluctent to give up calibers they have used for years. There were no military rifles made in the J loading after 1905 however.
You're correct Dave, the J barrel was commerically used for many years after the S bullet appeared. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the 8.2 marking on DBEAR1's rifle represents August 1902. I say that because his gun has neither the Blachen proof load stamping (required some time after DBEAR1's gun was proofed, but discontinued in 1912; or the caliber designation (ie. 8mm/57) which was started in 1912. I've never been able to determine just when the Blachen load marking was 1st required, but the 8.2 is the only marking left unaccounted for and the month/year stamp WAS in fact required at the time that gun was proofed (@ the time the gauge standard was used) . Therefore I think it reasonable to believe that 8.2 means August 1902. Moreover, and until a gunsmith determines otherwise, the safe thing to do would be to consider it a J barrel.
da gimp---
It is undoubtly a 1898 model action, but is not a Military rifle that was converted. It is a commercial action made by Steyr. What is commonly called a 98K (proper model number is K98k, Karbiner 98 kutz or short) was the German WW11 standard military rifle. These were made from 1935 thru 1945 and none were ever marked with the name of a maker. They were marked with codes, numbers or letters and combinations. The closest were a few assembled by Obendorf in 1941 that had the Mauser banner on reciever ring. These were probably left over recievers from the late '30's for the Chinese contract or perhaps the jap contract or sporting rifles from even earlier. I have one that is matched and original---there is no other name or address on it. I have seen two others, both RC's and they are all in the hh block. And before the war the 'old gent' could never have gotten hold of a true K98k!, especially in Austria. There were only 2 or 3 firms making them at that time and they all went to the armed forces of Germany.
Could I use 32 special bullets in this rifle?
older than dirt
07-22-2012, 05:38
How about some pics of this rifle?
Could I use 32 special bullets in this rifle?
I believe that the 32 Special uses a .321 bullet. Woodleigh & Buffalo Bullet make .318 bullets for the J barrel . They're not exactly cheap but if you plan on loading jacketed bullets to standard European commercial specs they're what you want to use. European commercial spec'd 8mm tends to be substantially "hotter" than U.S. commercial production. In Europe the differance between J & S barrels is generally understood among shooters, which is not the case in the U.S. A result of that is that American commercial 8x57 ammo (ie. Remington) is generally loaded "down" (compared to European loads) due to concerns that the .323 ammo might be used in "J" (.318) barreled guns, such as the many civilian "Guild" type rifles brought back after WWII by returning GI's. Another option to consider is the use of cast bullets with the appropriate powder charge(s).
The problem of using S bullets in a J bore rifle (.323 vs. .318) is not bore diameter but the tight chamber throat, which will not allow the case to expand and release the bullet, thus causing hi-pressure. When rifles were converted they were NOT re-bored or re-barreled but the throat was relieved, that was it! I am talking here about the German military and conversions done in Germany. The difference in bullet dia. (5 thou.) was not dangerous.
The problem of using S bullets in a J bore rifle (.323 vs. .318) is not bore diameter but the tight chamber throat, which will not allow the case to expand and release the bullet, thus causing hi-pressure. When rifles were converted they were NOT re-bored or re-barreled but the throat was relieved, that was it! I am talking here about the German military and conversions done in Germany. The difference in bullet dia. (5 thou.) was not dangerous.
Which is what the Germans did to some of their M 1888 rifles and carbines. Those so modified had a big S stamped on the receiver ring. I had a S modified 1888 carbine which shot everything I put through it very well, including that "hot" Turk surplus. LOUD, and kicked like a mule, but it handled it.
Thanks dave, when we move that safe (soon I hope) I'll dig out that rifle & get all the markings...
Pictures would be nice too!!
Thanks dave, when we move that safe (soon I hope) I'll dig out that rifle & get all the markings...
I believe that a relatively small number of "recovered" WWI GEW 98 actions were "converted" to the 98k configuration, more or less. Those will still have the original maker's mark. I say "more or less" because not all 98k features may be present. Most commonly that shows up in the form of straight bolts. A friend of mine has one of those. My understanding is that some were converted as field prototypes for what would eventually become the common 98k, most as a war time expediency.
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