Any Vietnam Vets with knowledge on the use of the XM21 and accessories?

[Col. Colt]

As a pretty serious arms historian (I love History!) I think it is important to recover and record as much "living history" info as possible, as soon as possible. With most VN vets in their sixties now, it's time to "get it down" wihat really was used rather than what the manuals say, positive and negative field reports on the gear "in theatre", etc.

If any of our members are Vietnam Veteran Snipers or Armorers, how about sharing your stories - or at least giving us the lowdown on how good or bad the individual pieces of gear worked for you. A few specific questions:

Did the XM-21 with the epoxy treated stocks hold zero in the jungle and monsoon rain? How well did the AR TEL scope work out? Did it's cam track the issue M-118 NM ammo pretty well? Every have to use M80 ball, and how did that work? Did you use the Redfield scope caps when not shooting? Carry the aluminum can or leave it at camp? Use Iron sights at all against the NVA? Was the PVS-2, in your experience, effective - and to what actual range under good (moon light) conditons? Did anyone use the seven round AMTU mags? Some XM21s are reported to have been made with modified E2 stocks and some with full auto switches - anyone ever see one "in country"?

How common was enemy sniper fire - and were you involved in neutralizing them?

Just hoping to add to the historical knowledge base. If you, or anyone you know has first hand knowledge, it would be appreciated, for both the collecting community and posterity. Thanks, CC

[Don in SC]

Contact Hook Boutin. He was on the design team for the XM21 and went to Viet Nam twice as an Instructor. He shot for the AMU for years and worked in theAMU shops at Benning for years after the war. He knew Leatherwood personnally and I have one of Leatherwoods proto type Art II scopes he gave Hook after he came back from Viet Nam the second time. The proto type has a rachet like rail so the scope could be moved front to rear for eye relief of the shooter. The Army felt it to complicated and went with a fixed base.

[Col. Colt]

Thanks, Don. I am sure that is as "straight from the horse's mouth" as it could get. I will look up his contact info. CC

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I can answer one of your questions. Sniper fire was a constant threat on a daily basis. Much of it was very inaccurate. I was at FLC for a while, and they had a kid that would shot into the compound every day from about 600 yds away. The base commander refused to allow anyone to take him out. To my knowledge, he never hit anyone, but he did hit the shield of a 105 while myself and two other guys were standing next to it. Scared the bejezzus out of me. Personally, I enjoyed the rocket show every night. They never hit anything either.

jt

[holdover]

Ditto on the sniper fire, not very accurate in most cases but dangerous none the less. I credit my being here to write this to the Marine snipers that were always hunting the bad guys that were hunting us.

[Former Cav]

I was busting track on a tank to throw out a pair of roadwheels as the torsion bar was broken. The sniper (if you want to call him that) was shooting at us. He hit the tank a few times. I often wondered if he was that poor of a shooter, or his equipment was lousy, or if he was just having fun.

[Randy A]

Viet Nam was before my time but I've shot them, we still have them in our inventory, haven't used the PVS 2 though. All of the base rifles are NM M14's, all have the selector switch welded and none I've ever seen had A1 stocks (frankly, I've never heard of them having them as issue). They're all bedded, so if someone switched stocks in the field to the A1, I'm sure they suffered accuracy deterioration.
A lot of extra work went into those rifles, although we could, we avoided M80 ammo (they have NM heavy barrels). There were always rumors of jacket alloy's and anybody that cared about thier rifle (21's) didn't use it. I never really knew what to think about that rumor, but I busted open a brand new crate of it one time, marked "M 80", peeled out a couple and held a magnet to the tip,,,, it sticks to it quite well and it is was definitely not armor piercing. So, we simpley did not run it through them, now, the other M14 was another story we used a lot of it in them. All I've ever used was the M118 and M852, I haven't shot them (21's) very much, our M24's of course were the go-to if you were playing past 6 or 700 yds. Last time I fired any of the 21's was in the 90's, I shot the heck out of our match m14s for several years after that.

[Randy A]

Now that you brought it up,, I think I'll saw an M80 bullet in half tomorrow. I never really did care why they were magnetic, but since they were not considered very good quality ammo, we didn't use them when we were expecting any accuracy.

[goo]

randy,

re: " All of the base rifles are NM M14's, all have the selector switch welded ..."

are you sure?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/firingline/a244.jpg

springfield selector kit on my m1a
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8318208000_b71e399108_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8357/8318245618_1f5c5f6ddc_b.jpg

no... the ejected brass doesn't hit the springfield 6x scope

[matthewison]

Team
My name is Matt, I was trained to use the( experimental model 21 or more commonly known as the xm-21, as it was the 21st experimental rifle based on the m-14 platform )my Training was At the first team academy( 1st Air Cav. Div.)1970 in Bien Hoa Vietnam. I also believe, only the army used the xm-21, as the Marine Corps used a model 70 Winchester or m-14 in the field, and the famous 30-338 for competition shooting, but I may be wrong.
The Sniper training cadre at the academy were all distinguished rifleman, some were presidents 100, they got by mistake, an NOC from Texas, distinguished with the golden cup .45, he was such a nice man & great rifle coach, they just keep him. Some of my fondest memories from Vietnam were watching him shoot frogs in bomb craters. Never under estimate the accuracy of a golden cup .45 in the right hands
The xm-21 was a truly outstanding military grade weapon. For use with iron sights to 300 meters & the Redfield to 600 meters plus. Iron sights & scope were zeroed for 300 meters; the Redfield scope was designed to adjust fire out to 900 meters. We also had a starlight scope zeroed at 300 meters. We NEVER wanted to fire at night, and if we did, ya mounted the Redfield & had them pop an elimination round. We sometimes used the Starlight as a hand held aid only. Using anything but Match grade ammo was highly discouraged. I have on occasion saw them used to fire M-60 tracers rounds to ID enemy movement at night.( off firebases only, not in the field )also an attachment termed a subsonic wave length control , a device used to mask the muzzle blast, and disburse the sound wave to help hide the shooters position. The Redfield was only mounted when needed & carried in a round leather case fitted to your web belt.
The better enemy snipers, we encountered (seldom) used the SKS rifle with iron sights, effective only at moderate ranges, certainly no match for the xm-21.. But really the troops, most often called in a cobra gunship to deal with the problem
Should anyone have a Question about the xm-21 or the equipment we used? I would do my very best to give ya an answer, But PLEASE remember, I don`t like tell`n war stories & seldom lie, If anyone should ask if the xm-21 was really that good a rifle,, Ya can honestly say , It was that & more,,, Matt

[matthewison]

I was a 1st air cav. / H co. 75th ranger Snipers. Trained in 1970 Bien Hoa Vietnam, ourxm-21 stocks were made of select wood with only the barrel being glass bedded. They were extremely accurate and held there 300 meter zero (offend checked using firing cradle) Iron sights & 3x9 Redfield scope, were zeroed at 300 meters. The Redfield would adjust this point of impact out to 900 meters if zeroed at 300 meter with match grade ammo.
The Redfield’s were only mounted as needed, and carried in a small leather case designed to be mounted to your web gear.
We had the first generation starlight scopes, zeroed at 300 meters only. They were mostly use on firebases, as a hand held aid.
I never saw an xm-21, with a full auto selector switch. We used the standard 20 round Mag.
The better enemy snipers, we encountered (seldom) used the SKS rifle with iron sights, effective only at moderate ranges, certainly no match for the xm-21.. But really the troops often called in a cobra gunship to deal with the problem

[1940upf7]

Hello Don and Col Colt,
I have a Jim Leatherwood owned ARTII also.
Since I acquired that scope, I have been trying to learn more about Jim and his Vietnam experiences. So contacting Mr. Boutin could be a big breakthrough!
Do you have any idea how to contact him, or would you put me in contact with him?
Thanks for your help!
Kevin

[can14]

I have a realist ART 3x9 scope, US ART 11s and Israeli ART 11 Scopes. Israeli scopes have aluminum m14 mounts where as US have steel m14 mounts The israeli scopes
came with us gi m14 rifles

[Col. Colt]

Sadly, I understand that "Hook" Boutin has passed. But there are still quite a few Vietnam era vets surviving, and I would encourage everyone to document as much of that history from "the horse's mouth" ASAP. We have already lost the WWII Generation, largely, and few Korean War vets are heard from.

Glad to hear that the XM-21 was a good piece from people who were there. That is it's reputation, but it's nicer to hear it from someone who waw it in action. CC

[riflegreen297]

I have a tub of original documents (photos/ documents/certificates/ graduate rosters/training schedules/combat after action reports from sniper teams ) from the 1st Sniper School stood up by the 25th ID in Vietnam ran by MAJ. Powell in Vietnam. There are a lot of documents back and forth from Vietnam and Benning dealing with standing up the school, bringing over AMU guys to help instruct, developing the XM-21, Starlight scope, rifle scopes for the XM-21, camouflage and sniper manuals. Photos showing the M-21 being used by the students using the M84, ART and PVS-2. A lot of fascinating documents.
33081 3308233083

[lyman]

I have a tub of original documents (photos/ documents/certificates/ graduate rosters/training schedules/combat after action reports from sniper teams ) from the 1st Sniper School stood up by the 25th ID in Vietnam ran by MAJ. Powell in Vietnam. There are a lot of documents back and forth from Vietnam and Benning dealing with standing up the school, bringing over AMU guys to help instruct, developing the XM-21, Starlight scope, rifle scopes for the XM-21, camouflage and sniper manuals. Photos showing the M-21 being used by the students using the M84, ART and PVS-2. A lot of fascinating documents.
33081 3308233083

you should publish those, or get copies to one of the sniper book folk that plan on a revision so they can include that data (if you have not done so already)