P100 Shoot-Off

[Maury Krupp]

(thought I'd posted this earlier but it doesn't show up; must've clicked on the wrong thing somewhere :icon_scratch:)

As some of you may know there was a bit of a dust-up at this year's President's 100 shoot-off. I wasn't there so there's nothing much I can (or should) say about what actually happened.

But it does put the shoot-off itself on the front burner.

I don't like the whole idea. Never have; never will.

For three decades shooting the high score in "the toughest 30 shots in Service Rifle competition" was good enough to determine the match winner. It still is.

If you feel the same and would like to see the shoot-off eliminated returning the match format to the traditional 30 shots, email CMP at coo@odcmp.com and tell them so. Include your reasons but short and sweet is probably a good guide.

Maury

[Ernie]

Agreed, I think its dumb and unfair to make the winner win twice.

[Ltdave]

unfortunately this year, the winner wasnt able to win twice. too bad too but an interesting "real match" none the less...

[RichardN]

I'm by no means a high level competitor. I can say from experience. Each shooter on the firing line is subject to a variety of conditions in a given day at Perry. I was the first relay one year and a thick fog rolled in. By the time we finished the string, the targets were a haze, just barely visable. The second relay was postponed until it cleared. We've seen instances where a storm cell rolls in. The winds pickup to a level, shooting on the 6 line is a bear. Just as bad, it rains on your relay only.
Each top level competitor may have been subject to a condition during the day which may have created them to drop that needed point for the win. Each of them are a slave to the relay they have been assigned to. Including you or I. With this in mind, the selection of the top performing shooters. To perform under the same conditions together. Should eliminate any doubt which one has the highest skill level of performance.
It would be nice to be so lucky to make it through one day with no wind, rain or haze and consistant light conditions. Yeah, you could rack up a pretty good score, easily.
At least knowing before you fire your first shot, the goal is to make it to the shootoff. For the opportunity to win the match, does seem to be a fair game. Just my opinion.

[RichardN]

I can't believe I was at Perry all week and never saw you, Maury. I also get a kick out of being a junior member on this website and have been posting since its inception. I've still got my hat! Were pulling another rattle battle team together for next year. I wish Mike Ginger was still around.

[Maury Krupp]

Don't worry Richard, you're not losing it; you didn't see me because I wasn't there. Had some personal issues and the whole 4200mi round-trip drive thing has lost a lot of its allure :walk:

You're right that different relays can have different conditions. I can recall one year where you could pick out the AM and PM relays in the Garand Match just by looking at the Standing scores.

But unlike other shoot-offs (eg, Long Range), in the P100 there is no attempt to include the top shooters from each relay. It's the top 20 raw scores - period. If conditions really are that much harder or easier it's possible all 20 could be from the same relay.

Besides, when it comes to conditions, playing the hand you're dealt has always been a part of XTC highpower.

Nor does the shoot-off really select the best all-round shooter. It selects the best slow prone shooter. If you're a real strong shooter at 2 & 3 you can drop points at 6 and still make the shoot-off. The P100 is a test of XTC marksmanship; the shoot-off is a test of belly shooting.

The shoot-off is nothing but a dog-and-pony show and the dog needs to be put down :1930:

Maury

[George in NH]

For the record, I am against the "shoot off". Since the top two shooters both fired clean scores with differing X counts, if I may ask, what was the "dust up"? Just curious....TIA, George in NH

[Ltdave]

The shoot-off is nothing but a dog-and-pony show and the dog needs to be put down


from what i had been told, Gary Anderson implemented it because A) thats what they do in international competitions, B) he wanted something to 'showcase' during the matches and C) that it was going to be webcast and its easier to webcast this nonsense (because everyone shoots on cue) than it would be the entire match...

i agree it was a bad choice then and a bad choice now. tear it down...

[remus]

I think that the cure for the shoot off is for the competitors themselves to just not participate in the shoot off. I am one of the hard headed ones that think if I won the match I won it. I don't need to shoot of with the second or third place guy to prove it. If enough of the competitors got balls enough to refuse the wrong thing, they might, just might rethink their positions.

If my non participation gave the first place win to someone else, I guess thats life. But I'd know, and I really don't care who else did.

But then vanity can be a very forceful thing.

[da gimp]

Maury,

Respectfully sir, I can see Gary's logic in having the top shooters having a shootoff at the same time....... under equal light, wind & weather conditions.......

As Gary shot for a great many years in competition, he has a long shooting history ........

I'm sure over the years, he has seen a great many exceptional shooters face terrible conditions & still place, with a few drawing great conditions & scoring way better than if they had faced the same adverse conditions....... his shootoff places all on an equal footing.........

just this old man's two cents........

[Maury Krupp]

Gimp,

First, I don't think a slow prone shoot-off is necessarily a fair way to determine the winner of an XTC match.

Second, a shoot-off is only valid as a final stage if the top shooters from each relay are selected. That's the practice for Long Range where conditions can often make a huge difference.

As the P100 shoot-off is done now it's possible for all 20 shooters to be from whatever relay had the best conditions. While in reality another shooter may have been on a different relay in the worst conditions and is arguably the better shooter for having placed 21st.

I'm familiar with Gary's achievements as a competitive shooter; they are very impressive.

His work as DCM made the CMP into the dynamic organization it is today. The CMP Games (in all their forms, National, Western, Eastern, and club) were a masterstroke. They have brought more people into highpower competition that anyone could have imagined. The same goes for nearly all the other CMP programs.

But nobody bats 1000 and in my view the P100 shoot-off is a swing and a miss :icon_e_sad:

Maury

[da gimp]

Maybe we need to petition Gary to include the 2-4 top shooters of each relay......that makes sense to me...

Maury, I do understand your thinking too...............

[George in NH]

So..........what was the "dust up" this year? Just curious.........George in NH

[Maury Krupp]

Seven of the Final 20 elected not to shoot the last 10 shots and ended up DQ'd.

There has been a lot of "Did not! Did So!" about what exactly happened at the shoot-off and the decision to DQ. I wasn't there and even those who were can't seem to agree on what happened.

The few semi-official public statements that have been made by the parties involved don't shed any real light on the matter either.

We'll probably never know for sure and as far as I'm concerned that part is history so I don't much care anymore.

The axe I'm grinding is to get rid of any future shoot-offs :protest:

Maury

[Ltdave]

So..........what was the "dust up" this year? Just curious.........George in NH

what i got from Mr Michaels


I do not mean to be confrontational, but there are two or more sides to every story. They were not DQd for not participating. They were DQd because of unsportsmanlike conduct which distracted the remaining 13 shooters, some of whom complained to the Match Director at the time. Please note that they did not file a protest or appeal the DQ.

[Collector497]

Agreed, I think its dumb and unfair to make the winner win twice.

How does someone win "twice"? According to the program you have to have the highest score after 40 shots to win. That sounds like only winning once.

[remus]

If you can hack it go to AR15.com, click on the training box, then the competitions, dcm, natl match etc. There is a three page litany there by a bunch of high power shooters. Pro, con. This would be for those that are interested in the dcm high power program. Personally I think if you shoot the highest score and only win by X's, you are still the winner. In my opinion you won the match Shouldn't have to shoot again. Period.