Mystery M1 Bayonet

[thorin6]

I posted this on another forum several months ago, but thought I’d put it here to see if anyone has any ideas. At first glance it looks like any cut down M1907 Springfield Armory bayonet. It has the typical SA markings, dated 1918; it has the spear point and is parkerized. The internal parts are all SA, and the grips are WWII bakelite with AB and the mold number stamped inside each grip.

The scabbard is a M3 cut down, but the cut indents and bent tabs are different from the press fit that is common to cut down scabbards. It also does not have the metal springs to hold the bayonet tight, as the early M3 scabbards were not equipped with them.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/thorin6/MysteryM1b.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/thorin6/MysteryM1c.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/thorin6/MysteryM1d.jpg

Then things get strange. When compared to a factory cut down bayonet (in this case a Rock Island Arsenal) and its scabbard, you can see that the SA cut down bayonet and its scabbard are shorter than the RIA bayonet and scabbard. In fact, the SA bayonet is 8 ¾ inches long compared to the RIA at 9 7/8 inches (nominal 10 inches), and the scabbard is shorter by the same amount. The normal 10 inch M1 bayonet will not fit in the scabbard for the SA. Also, the top of the SA bayonet has been ground down so that the bayonet actually has a double edged blade.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/thorin6/MysteryM1a.jpg

So the question is where did this cut down SA bayonet come from? The length of the SA bayonet is the same as the Krag Cadet Bayonet (8 3/4 inches) but that may be pure coincidence.

Reading the following in Gary Cunningham’s Bayonet Points, I have speculated on the origin of this bayonet and scabbard, although the possibility that it was a theater modified knife or a home workshop knife hasn’t escaped me.

M1 Bayonets
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_24.htm
M1905E1 Bayonets (cut down Model of 1905/M1905)
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_2.htm
Scabbards
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/bayo_points_6.htm

In August 1942 the Cavalry Board requested consideration to reduce the length of the blade of the bayonet for the M1903/M1 rifles from 16 inches to 10 inches, and that summer and fall shorten bayonets were tested by various entities, such as the Infantry Board and the 1st Cavalry Division. A report was submitted in Feb 1943 recommending the change from a 16 inch blade to a 10 inch blade and shortly thereafter production of the M1 bayonet began and production of the M1905 bayonet came to an end (April/May 1943). Deliveries of M1905 modified bayonets shortened to 10 inches (identified by collectors as the M1905E1) began in September 1943. The modification of the M3 scabbards (for the 16 inch bayonet) to shorten them for the M1 and M1905E1 bayonets began in August 1943 and continued on and off to the end of the war.

Now for this bayonet and scabbard:
The metal number under the throat plate puts the manufacture of the scabbard around the summer of 1942 (June, July? can’t be more definite than that). The M3 scabbard was certainly easier to modify than the earlier canvas, rawhide, and wood scabbard, so that would explain using a cut down M3 over the WWI scabbard, and it’s a reasonable assumption that this scabbard was cut down specifically for this bayonet. This might mean that the entire modification was completed around that time (summer 1942). The source for this bayonet indicates it came from the WWII period and not later, so I’m working from that assumption. Also, if the modification of the bayonet occurred after August of 1943 both the shortened scabbards and the original M1 scabbards (designate the M7) would be available and shortening an existing M3 scabbard would not have been necessary.

It is also around this time that the Cavalry Board advanced its proposal to shorten the bayonet blade to 10 inches. My speculation is that they (and the other players to include the Infantry Board) would have tested some field modification prior to recommending and supporting the change. It is possible that this bayonet represents that sort of modification in support of the recommendation, whether before or after the Cavalry Board formally requested the change. In Gary Cunningham’s Bayonet Points, he quotes a 1st Cavalry Division report lauding the shortened bayonet a “fast cutting and thrusting weapon” during the testing in the Fall of 1942 that resulted in the recommendation to change to the 10 inch blade in February 1943. A double edged bayonet blade of this length (8 ¾ inches) would fit that description and still be usable in the bayonet role. If the bayonet/scabbard was modified before the recommendation was officially made to alter the blade length to 10 inches (August 1942) any record of the modification might not exist today, but if it was made after the recommendation and when the shortened bayonet was tested, there might be something in the official record.

I suspect that any suggestion of adopting this type bayonet would have run into a practical obstruction; changing manufacturing to just shortening the blade and altering the fuller would be much easier than adding a second edge. The war time urgencies and the extra tooling costs would certainly doom any major modifications to the bayonets.

Or this might all be wishful thinking. Anyone have opinions on this line of thought? I don’t know if anyone has records of the testing that was done in fall 1942 or if other records exist, but it would be interesting if such bayonets did exist.

[m1ashooter]

I'm hoping Gary will comment, it doesn't look like a field mod as its too clean and neat. You mike be sitting on the ticket to wealth with this one.

[BOB LOUGHLIN]

I bought about 25 Bayonets from SOGG at $29.00 each years ago and I can tell you for fact that none of them were cut equal. Some were 11 + inch and some were 9 1/2 inch. They ranged from 1907 to 1943. The scabbards were also cut to fit the bayonets, and some of the bayonets were spear point and some were cut like a bowie blade. I do remember a Bowie cut bayonet that was sharpened on both edges, with the upper part of the blade being dished and sharpened about 3 inches back from the point. Out of the 25 or so I bought , I was able to put a nice collection of the 5 makers that were made 10 inch from the factory after the mid 1943 orders to only make 10 inch bayonets. Bob.

[thorin6]

I bought about 25 Bayonets from SOGG at $29.00 each years ago and I can tell you for fact that none of them were cut equal. Some were 11 + inch and some were 9 1/2 inch. They ranged from 1907 to 1943. The scabbards were also cut to fit the bayonets, and some of the bayonets were spear point and some were cut like a bowie blade. I do remember a Bowie cut bayonet that was sharpened on both edges, with the upper part of the blade being dished and sharpened about 3 inches back from the point. Out of the 25 or so I bought , I was able to put a nice collection of the 5 makers that were made 10 inch from the factory after the mid 1943 orders to only make 10 inch bayonets. Bob.
Bob,
You make some good points about the variability of the cut-down M1 bayonets, and I understand that some of the spear points had the top edge sharpened like you see on the M3 knives and M4 bayonets. There is also going to be some variability in the length of the scabbards. But by and large it appears that most of the M1907 bayonets are going to fall within the 10-inch plus or minus 1/2 inch or so, and the M3 scabbards are going to have the same varibility in their cut-down length.
This bayonet and scabbard are much shorter than one would expect under the normal course of modifying the M1907/M3s, and the edge on the top of the bayonet goes all the way back to end about a quarter of an inch from the guard. One other point is that the M3 scabbards that were modified had the metal clips added to them if the scabbards were missing them and this M3 doesn't have the clips.
It is also possible that other M1907 bayonets and M3 scabbards that were used during these tests in 1942 are still around and would have some varibility in length; the question is whether the M1907/M3 that I've got could be one of those. Also, do any records exist to verify the existence of the test bayonets and scabbards, and if so, is there anyway to identify them?

[BOB LOUGHLIN]

m1ashooter has the right idea. Collecters like Gary and other Bayonet experts may have others like yours in their collection. There may have been a pattern with one of the companies that got a contract to cut the 16 inch bayonets. Like a coin stamped off center, it has happened.

[twh]

I would suggest to you that somewhere along the line someone buggered up the tip and by the time they reground it this is what was left. The scabbard was then modified by the same individual as evidenced by the fresh cute in the fiberglass. I have seen slight variances in the length of the modified bayonets but they were done to a set of standards which would not have had that much variance. Just my theory.

[Tom in N.J.]

Looks like a home cut down job to me, is it marked as to who cut it down? The scabbard is not a contract cut down job, they did not use tabs on the throat. Does it have the code for the shortening job on the bottom of the throat on the side opposite the metal supplier code? I had a friend who shortened M1905 bayonets and M3 scabbards years ago. Except for the missing marks you could not tell they were basement done. Only Beckwith had a contract to shorten M3 scabbards.

[thorin6]

Looks like a home cut down job to me, is it marked as to who cut it down?

There are no markings that indicate who cut it down. Normally they would be on the tang but nothing here.


The scabbard is not a contract cut down job, they did not use tabs on the throat. Does it have the code for the shortening job on the bottom of the throat on the side opposite the metal supplier code?

No REP code; along with the lack of the metal spring pieces to hold the blade inside the scabbard would indicate it is not a factory shortened scabbard. Also, the very first altered scabbards did have the tabs; the press fitting was used when it was determined that the tabs were breaking as they were bent back and forth.


I had a friend who shortened M1905 bayonets and M3 scabbards years ago. Except for the missing marks you could not tell they were basement done. Only Beckwith had a contract to shorten M3 scabbards.

I'm not discounting the workshop version of the M1905 and M3 scabbards; my question on this blade relates to M1905 bayonets and scabbards that were cut down in 1942. Obviously some were cut down and tried out before the Infantry Board and Cavalry Board recommended the testing of the 10-inch blades, and it's possible that blade lengths other than 10 inches were tried. The readily available information on shorter lengths would have been the Krag bayonets at slightly less than 12 inches (regular issue) and the ones at 8-3/4 inches (West Point Cadet blades, see here: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/amewm_1.htm ). There is also the Model of 1921 stiletto bayonet that was tested after WWI (see here: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/amewm_15.htm ) that was just over 8 inches in length and was double-edged.
It would seem to me that anyone cutting down the 16-inch bayonets and respective scabbards would have keep the blade at 10 inches (plus or minus a quarter of an inch or so depending upon skill), and anyone cutting them down for use as knives would have cut them under 7-inches. I have a Wilde Tool bayonet cut down to about 6-7/8 inches (length of a Ka-bar or Mk2) which is very nicely done, but the blade is in the white.
So, I'm still looking for any documentation or anecdotal information on those M1905 bayonets and M3 scabbards that were cut down (not by the factory) in 1942.

[browningautorifle]

If a bayonet was beat up an average individual could do the things you see here. I have done things similar and then bead blasted and parkerized after. Not that hard. Lots of beater blades out there that need help. Then it looks like arsenal. I don't think it's special...