45 acp, crimping

[gatorbone]

I'm just getting back to casting and reloading after a whole lot of years. Have forgotten way to much and will probably ask some silly questions. I've3 cast some 242 gr. LRN bullets, sized and lubed them with some old Alox. Now for the silly question. Is it necessary to taper crimp these bullets. I'm sure roll crimping is out of the question. Any advice is certainly welcome.:icon_scratch:

[joem]

I don't cast my own bullets but I load cast lead. I only crimp them enough to take the bell out. I have maximum length case gauge to check my die set up.

[gatorbone]

I do't have a taper crimping die, will the other die work if used gently?

[joem]

what other die are you talking about? Pretty sure your die would be a seat and crimp die, Mine are.

[Matt Anthony]

I do't have a taper crimping die, will the other die work if used gently?

NO, it won't work because it's not a taper crimp tie. Purchase the proper taper crimp die, RCBS has one as that is what I use as my last step. Please, for the sake of others, always follow the correct loading protocol so you don't kill yourself or someone else!
Matt

[m1ashooter]

I also crimp enought to take the bell out. My seating die does it.

[da gimp]

I also crimp enought to take the bell out. My seating die does it.

ditto............. all my RCBS .45ACP's seating dies do this also, have 4 sets of std & carbide dies set up for my presses, they all work well, have never needed a Lee taper crimp die yet.......for .45ACP , 9mmP, or .223Rem/5.56mm

[rider]

I never thought it was a good idea to roll-crimp a case that headspaces on the case mouth. AFAIK, all the die manufacturers make taper crimp dies for 45ACP, not just LEE. Mine's an RCBS.

[Johnny in Texas]

I always taper crimp just enough to straighten the case mouth out.

[Johnny P]

In an auto pistol the cartridge seldom headspaces on the shoulder of the chamber. As the cartridge feeds out of the magazine it slides up the face of the breechblock and under the extractor. The extractor holds it through the firing process. In Hatcher's Hatcher's Notebook he describes firing .380 ACP (9mm Kurz) in a 9mm Luger. The .380 cartridge slides up under the extractor and fires normally even with over 70 thousandths excessive headspace. Naturally the .380 cartridge wouldn't cycle the action of the Luger, but it safely fired.

[Hefights]

Get an RCBS or Lee taper crimp die and use it for the last step, follow the instructions, it will be good. The case headspaces on the mouth as stated previously. Crimp just enough for the mouth to to be snug to the bullet with case mouth still having that easy to feel "edge" all around the bullet, i.e. don't overcrimp the mouth into the lead.

[gatorbone]

Thanks to all for the sage advice, Ill double check my dies (Lyman) and see for sure what I have. Invest a few bullets and cases to see whats actually happening.

Thanks again.

[da gimp]

might mike the expander plug on your decapping rod, a very few slip thru quality control that are over sized...........also mike your bullets & make sure that they aren't undersized, some lead alloys shrink quite a bit as the bullet cools after they are dropped from the mold.......sorry I didn't think of this before.Lyman makes daam good dies too.

[DaveL]

I've been loading 45 ACP for 40 years. I never owned a taper crimp die. Every standard bullet-seating die ever made was made to role crimp. Taper crimp dies came into vogue when 10mm and 40 S&W with their high pressures became popular. If you had said you were loading either of those caliber’s then I would say you MIGHT need to use a taper crimp die but with 45, 9mm, 38 special, 357 mag and any of the old S&W or Colt caliber’s taper crimp dies are an unnecessary expense IMHO. It is however VERY IMPORTANT to have all your brass uniformed in length when using a role crimp and you must pay close attention to your die setup and be careful not to over crimp which can result in bad head-spacing and or failure to chamber from bulged cases.
HTH

[psteinmayer]

In an auto pistol the cartridge seldom headspaces on the shoulder of the chamber. As the cartridge feeds out of the magazine it slides up the face of the breechblock and under the extractor. The extractor holds it through the firing process. In Hatcher's Hatcher's Notebook he describes firing .380 ACP (9mm Kurz) in a 9mm Luger. The .380 cartridge slides up under the extractor and fires normally even with over 70 thousandths excessive headspace. Naturally the .380 cartridge wouldn't cycle the action of the Luger, but it safely fired.

That may be true of firing a luger... but a .45 does headspace on the case mouth. A .45 that doesn't properly headspace could result in a release of potentially hazardous gasses... just the same as a improperly headspaced 30-06. The best bet IMHO is to stay away from roll-crimps. Lee has a factory crimp die for .45 ACP which forms a proper crimp and resizes the case from expansion, creating a cartridge that should never jam or foul. It's the only crimp I use and I've never had a problem!

[da gimp]

9mmP headspaces on the case mouth too, just like a .45ACP.............. with proper expanding ball/rod & good dies, taper crimps are at best unnecessary & make it harder for the loaded round to headspace properly if at all.........

[Hefights]

Get a taper crimp die for .45 ACP or 9mm, it will do a better job. Taper crimp die facilitates proper headspace for those cartridges. If you can do it with a std seater die in the same step as bullet seating more power to you, but my experience is that the taper crimp die does a better job. Missouri mules tend to stick with what works for them, and I am one of them :)

[gatorbone]

I bought a taper crimping die and lo and behold things work sooooo much better. Feel a lot more comfortable now. performance is to be determined. Should be a lot better. Thanks to all for the wisdom and insight. Kim

[Hefights]

My experience was exactly the same, years ago. I am sure that one can "taper crimp" with a regular die somehow, at least of a sort, and that now modern Lee Dies (and perhaps others) are set up for that. Howver, all I remember is that trying to get a good quality crimp on a .45 ACP with a standard seater/crimper die in the same step was a real pain, with mediocre results. Perhaps I just didn't have the knack nor the patience.

But when I got the taper crimp die, and went to a separate step, and then got my Dillon 550, all became right with the world, smooth, easy with a very professional end product,

and for the others who disagree adamantly, well, Your Mileage May Indeed Vary, and is entitled to do so!

[duke133]

Johnny P. I just saw you mention of firing a 380 in a 9 and it brought back memories of my firearms instructor course years ago. They would load your mags for the combat course and slip a 380 in somewhere along the line, sometimes more than one, which would simulate a malfunction of your weapon during the course. The rounds always shot but never ejected and caused some to hesitate tooooo long, as in you're dead, try again!

[Johnny P]

That may be true of firing a luger... but a .45 does headspace on the case mouth. A .45 that doesn't properly headspace could result in a release of potentially hazardous gasses... just the same as a improperly headspaced 30-06. The best bet IMHO is to stay away from roll-crimps. Lee has a factory crimp die for .45 ACP which forms a proper crimp and resizes the case from expansion, creating a cartridge that should never jam or foul. It's the only crimp I use and I've never had a problem!

A 9mm Luger headspaces on the the case mouth also, but just like the .45 ACP with a variety of case lengths, the extractor is holding the case and very seldom if ever headspaces perfectly on the end of the chamber.. Just a tiny bit too long and the pistol doesn't lock up properly. The Luger and the Model 1911 style pistol are "controlled feed". The cartridge is held in place long before it fully chambers, and if the cartridge is too short (as in the piece written by Julian Hatcher), it headspaces on the extractor. The extractor will hold the cartridge in it's correct position for firing.

Headspace on a .30-06 cartridge is another matter. If there is too much headspace in a .30-06, the front of the cartridge case clings to the chamber during firing, letting the thick web of the case which didn't expand move back, possibly causing a head separation, leaking gas back into the rifle action.

I agree that taper crimps are much easier to control, as you are essentially smoothing out the flare in the case rather than rolling it in.

[dogtag]

Amazing ! You ask a simple question about 45 ACP and you get
advice for 30-06.

Yes, you should crimp, otherwise recoil will inch the bullet forward
jamming the mechanism.
Taper crimp for pistols because they headspace at case mouth
Roll or taper for revolver.

[Hefights]

Yes, but Johnny P's post is right on the mark in terms of what happens in the real world with the little straight walled semi auto cases, very nicely and concisely illustrated in words.

[duke133]

I'll take all the info I can get. As with intel. it could be a little confusing at times but it is always better to have too much info rather than not enough IMHO> Thanks all.

[Hefights]

Take Johnny P's post to the bank, that is exactly how it works. Further, the .45 ACP cases shorten with use, not stretch. It makes for the best of all worlds. John Browning was so much a genius and ahead of his time, throw in the proven stopping power, and that's why the .45 ACP lives on in great popularity.

If you can get, and get used to using Bullseye powder in the .45 ACP, the one that was originally used to load factory ammo, it will shoot any type of bullet with exceptional accuracy and meters great, the only issue is it burns dirty, which does not bother me very much.

[rider]

The cool thing about Bullseye is how many full charges of it you can load into a pistol case - which is why I quit using it many years ago, but it's not a bad propellant. The importance of a good roll crimp in magnum revolver handloads will become apparent when bullets back out of their cases during recoil and lock-up the cylinder.
Taper crimping 45ACP becomes interesting when you have to change the (cast) bullet seating depth so your handloads will feed reliably in 1911s from different manufacturers. I didn't mean to ramble but this thread jogs my memory a bit.

[Hefights]

"The cool thing about Bullseye is how many full charges of it you can load into a pistol case" - Same can be said for many of the other premier pistol powders, and in varying degrees, Bullseye is by far not the only powder this applies to. But you have to be careful about sarcasm in reloading discussion, safety first.

[rider]

"The cool thing about Bullseye is how many full charges of it you can load into a pistol case" - Same can be said for many of the other premier pistol powders, and in varying degrees, Bullseye is by far not the only powder this applies to. But you have to be careful about sarcasm in reloading discussion, safety first.

Safety first is why I quit using Bullseye because it's easier for me to spot a double charge when using slower burning propellants.

[Hefights]

Not using Bullseye is not a safety procedure or practice, its your personal preference. The same issue exists with any number of the better pistol powders. Following normal safety procedures when reloading, such as no distractions, and especially taking that final step of viewing all the charged cases in the tray under a bright light, prior to bullet seating will prevent double charging. The progressive presses like the one I use have additional safeguards.

[Johnny P]

Amazing ! You ask a simple question about 45 ACP and you get
advice for 30-06.


What simple question did you ask that you got advice for .30-06?

[gatorbone]

Boy oh boy, I sure didn't think a simple question about crimping would create such a conversation. All of the comments and thoughts so very consuming. The experience and insight of so many is, to use a worn out phrase, "awsome". It's nice to know that so many people give a d.... about nwhat goes on. I am so glad I got into this group.

Kim

[Hefights]

What simple question did you ask that you got advice for .30-06?

Johnny P, one of the posters was commenting on your mention of .30-06 case stretch. Your post was really excellent so no biggy.