VUL TEE

[LAH]

never seen one of these :icon_scratch:

http://pictures.gunauction.com/573/11750346/img_3724.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

[ClaudeH]

Yes, Very interesting! I look forward to what I will learn from discussion of this.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11750346/

[Calif Steve]

Vultee Aircraft Corp. Later merged into Consolidated Aviation Co. A company gun.

[Randy A]

Why does it look like a cast receiver, or is that paint?

[Kurt]

Randy, because it is a cast receiver. Makes you wonder about any connection to National Ord, directly, or the process.

Kurt

[Griff Murphey]

Vultee became Consolidated-Vultee in 1943. It is possible 03-A3s could have been supplied to them for guard guns, and even re numbered by some bright spark at the company. Being an aircraft company, not gun finishers, they may have painted the receiver. But I would not expect the paint to have held up that well over so many years. Close examination of the receiver should tell if it is a postwar cast receiver or WW 2 Remington or SC. I would suggest, if genuine, it should likely have all the same manufacturer parts.

It may be a weapon that walked off and was humped up to look like non-U.S. property.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

It sure looks like a cast receiver in the auction pictures. I did some Googling and came up dry on the rifles, they had some interesting planes.

[Kurt]

From Jack the Dogs description;

"Since all of the standard military production was needed to arm front line troops, these rifles were assembled with surplus/rejected military parts built on a non-military cast receiver. This particular rifle appears to have been used by Vultee Aviation. Vultee Aviation produced the BT-13 which was the basic trainer flown by most American pilots during World War II. Vultee later merged with Consolidated Aircraft Corporation to form Convair. The receiver is marked "VUL TEE AVIA." and serial numbered 1755. The receiver is obviously made from a casting and has some surface porosity and visible casting lines."

Pretty odd duck

Kurt

[PhillipM]

From Jack the Dogs description;

"Since all of the standard military production was needed to arm front line troops, these rifles were assembled with surplus/rejected military parts built on a non-military cast receiver. This particular rifle appears to have been used by Vultee Aviation. Vultee Aviation produced the BT-13 which was the basic trainer flown by most American pilots during World War II. Vultee later merged with Consolidated Aircraft Corporation to form Convair. The receiver is marked "VUL TEE AVIA." and serial numbered 1755. The receiver is obviously made from a casting and has some surface porosity and visible casting lines."

Pretty odd duck

Kurt

I wonder how long it took Jack's dog to come up with that fiction.

[ClaudeH]

Yesterday I was sort of taken in by the story, but inconsistencies nagged at me. Like the uniform finish on top of some incredibly battered parts.

Where are the experts who can tell so much from seeing the bottom of the receiver? There is such a shot in the listing - the front guard screw hole looks kind of stripped out in that shot, too.

[chuckindenver]

the gun and story are likely B.S.
its a National Ord , thats been ground, and hand stamped, all the metal is freshly painted with spray paint.
no stripper clip guide and cavity behind the recoil lug give it away.
i could build one just like it, in a day. with some of my shop grade stamps. some cheap paint and a shot out 1942 SA barrel.
ticking time bomb with a line of BS to go with it.
the only thing with any kind of real value or use...is the N.S. bolt..

[Calif Steve]

The whole story is a little odd. Vultee made high quality aircraft. So all of a sudden they make a piece of junk firearm? With junk parts with an odd serial number? Virtually unknown for 50 years? But I am to believe a dog? Pass on this one.

[da gimp]

If Chuck is correct ( I believe he is) removing the Nat'l Ordinance mark/name & their serial # makes & changing them to the present name, even possessing this rifle a serious FEDERAL felony.........and also a state felony here in Missouri.........who needs a serious legal headache with an admitedly poorly made/junk receiver..........that ain't even safe to shoot?

[Kurt]

As far as I am aware, Nat. Ord was the only one that made 1903A3 cast receivers. In addition to Chuck pointing out some of the dead give aways, there is another common feature to them, that being the circular depression on the ledge behind the cut-off switch.

Kurt

[joem]

At best it's a wall hanger and maybe a legal land mine. I wouldn't touch it myself.

[chuckindenver]

only illegal if you get caught right?

[Emri]

School Drill rifle, made up of surplus parts. ( my opinion ) The NS bolt is interesting, wonder if the FP hole is welded up. Did y'all see the pounding the buttplate has taken on hard surfaces before re-finishing ???

I'll second Chuck's statement...... Fresh spray paint; and fresh glue on the handguard to boot.

[Calif Steve]

No school drill rifle, beat up Butt Plate on nice wood?? Say what? This is a fraud, simply put. I pity the fool that buys that clunker.

[Kurt]

Considering the Vul-Tee stamping, there would have to be some connection vs someone with a bunch of parts laying around throwing something together. Perhaps a former principle at Nat Ord was buddies with some former like person at VulTee and either played a cruel joke on the guy or even lost a game of golf and had to pay up.

[chuckindenver]

i belive this rifle was put together well after Nat Ord went belly up...likely in the last few months
likely someone had a Nat Ord that they couldnt sell, and made the story up to BS a fool and his money...Jack the dog likely has no clue about its real history, and like most gunstores, is just selling it as it was sold or consigned to him, he,s sort of covered his own butt with the rifle isnt ment to be fired line...but whats to keep the new owner from doing so? tic tic tic tic tic....i hear it...

[Allen Humphrey]

From what I can tell, the company name is Vultee Aircraft, not Aviation.

now how about this.... via wikipedia (take it or leave it) "The first aircraft flew in September 1939 piloted by Vance Breese,[1] and was assigned registration number NX21755" Notice the last 4 digits of the serial number compared to the rifle?

Maybe it was a cheap retirement gift on 1/7/55 for the guy that nobody really liked! :)

[Kurt]

For discussion purposes only of course......:)

What would inspire someone to use "Vul Tee", why not Kellogs Frosted Flakes? I mean really, the time to grind, stamp, waste paint etc, just doesn't seem to add up for the price that things going to fetch, likely what it is at now. You could sell the parts and pieces for $300 bucks on flea bay and throw the receiver in the trash and not incur the time and liability for a couple bucks. Even Jack has to know who he got it from and if the original serial number was ground off and this one put on, wouldn't that leave some what of a trail? I totaly agree, Jacks story is cock and bull though.

[Allen Humphrey]

Kurt,
In spite of my flippant post above yours, I tend to agree with your line of reasoning despite the lack of direct evidence. It seems very farfetched that the rifle was assembled and modified with fraudulent intent to just get rid of a worthless rifle. I really do think there is a legitimate story somewhere. The Vultee connection seems too random for just fraud.

edit: by the way, what year did Nat-Ord start making cast receivers?

[PhillipM]

Kurt,
In spite of my flippant post above yours, I tend to agree with your line of reasoning despite the lack of direct evidence. It seems very farfetched that the rifle was assembled and modified with fraudulent intent to just get rid of a worthless rifle. I really do think there is a legitimate story somewhere. The Vultee connection seems too random for just fraud.

edit: by the way, what year did Nat-Ord start making cast receivers?

20 years after Vultee Aircraft changed to Consolidated. This rifle is phony


SPRINGFIELD RIFLE CALIBRE .30 MODEL 1903A3
NATIONAL ORDNANCE INC., SOUTH EL MONTE, CALIFORNIA

YEAR SERIAL NUMBERS QUANTITY
1965-1966 6,000,001 to 6,030,000 2500
Introduction of a New Type of Receiver Material
1967 5,000,001 to 5,003,000 3000
1968 5,000,001 to 5,008,000 5000
1969 5,008,001 to 5,014,000 6000
1970 5,014,001 to 5,020,000 6000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_Aircraft

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=224493


For discussion purposes only of course......:)

What would inspire someone to use "Vul Tee", why not Kellogs Frosted Flakes? I mean really, the time to grind, stamp, waste paint etc, just doesn't seem to add up for the price that things going to fetch, likely what it is at now. You could sell the parts and pieces for $300 bucks on flea bay and throw the receiver in the trash and not incur the time and liability for a couple bucks. Even Jack has to know who he got it from and if the original serial number was ground off and this one put on, wouldn't that leave some what of a trail? I totaly agree, Jacks story is cock and bull though.

Possibly inspired by the same reasons serial numbers are ground off many guns, they are stolen.

[Allen Humphrey]

Thanks for those dates Phillip! They sure don't help Jack's story. Whoever did it, should have at least picked Boeing, Republic, or North American so the dates would match. Better planes too:)

[Kurt]

20 years after Vultee Aircraft changed to Consolidated. This rifle is phony



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_Aircraft

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=224493





Possibly inspired by the same reasons serial numbers are ground off many guns, they are stolen.

I don't think there's any question about the phoneyness of Jacks story regarding the gun, but still contend there is a story to go with it beyond a stolen thrown together rifle done to get what? $400 bucks?

Allen, I didn't find your remark in anyway flippent. Very interesting your connecting the N number and serial. And my pick would be; Piper with a serial number P18A. LOL

Kurt

[John Beard]

A little research indicates that Vultee Aviation was located in Nashville, TN, and, amongst other things, manufactured wings during the 1970's for Lockheed L-1011 Tri-Star aircraft. Apparently they were originally part of Consolidated Vultee Aircraft (Later Convair) and perhaps became a separate subsidiary or entity. The markings appear genuine.

For what it's worth.

J.B.

[jgaynor]

There are several threads on going about truly interesting rifles....this is not one of them:sleepy2:

[chuckindenver]

nothing about that rifle is genuine...the paint, the markings ect...humped up POS.