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View Full Version : My "John Gillie" M1903



Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 06:42
Since Fred, in one of the other threads asked about it, and it has been awhile, here's the rundown on the rifle I pictured - no stock bolts.

About six years ago, I was offered a M1903 for sale. Although it appeared to be mostly original, it was marred (or so I thought) by an Indian head carving on the left side of the stock.

http://www.fototime.com/C02627B64C9D343/standard.jpg

However, it was a good price and I bought it anyway. There was a little bit of "drama" in getting it, when the seller sent me a box of computer parts by mistake (he got the shipping labels mixed up on two parcels he had sent). Fortunately, the right parcel got sent and the rifle was mine.

The rifle itself was as I thought, a more or less original early M1903 that had been modified to later standards in the 1908 period. It had been manufactured, probably as a 1903/05 and later rechambered in 30-06 and given a 1908 barrel. The only "post" 1908 part was a fine-checked buttplate.

The rifle came in a deteriorated cotton sleeve and had obviously not been stored correctly or "put away wet" after firing corrosive ammunition. There was extensive pitting on the crown of the muzzle and the bore was extensive pitted, as well. There was some rust on the barrel and upper band, although it was "surface", which cleaned off.

The most interesting thing was the manual and a couple of letters which accompanied the rifle. It had the name "John Gillie, Butte Montana" on the cover and on the inside.

http://www.fototime.com/D82860B34470D50/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/2822F26162AD25C/standard.jpg

Since the name was relatively uncommon, I did a Google search on "John Gillie" and "Butte Montana" and found that he was a mining engineer. He was the operations manager for the Anaconda firm that ran the copper mines (and virtually "owned" Montana in the early part of the 20th century).

The letter in the book contained a reference to a realty company that the author worked for. I looked up the firm and wrote them an email. They told me that, while the letter-writer had passed away, his daughter and two of his sons were still living. The daughter soon contacted me and I found out the author of the letter was John Gillie's stepson.

I found out that John Gillie was not only a prominent mining engineer, but a Montana pioneer, who had arrived in 1880. I liked to shoot and apparently used his position to obtain the M1903 (as well as a couple of other military rifles which had disappeared after being donated to a local museum). Gillie was the Operating manager at Anaconda during much of the labor unrest in the WWI-era.

The "smoking gun" (pun intended) was in form of a picture I obtained from a Montana historical society of John Gillie with his signature below. The signature matched the signature in the book. I also found out that Gillie was an amateur woodcarver and almost certainly carved the Indian head on the stock.

http://www.fototime.com/3C0239EC435B1FC/standard.jpg

I used the research I did to write a magazine article for "Gun Reports" Magazine about 2008. I thoroughly enjoyed doing it because I was able to combine my knowledge of M1903s and my professional library and history research skills. I also had the help of John Beard and a few other people on this forum.

http://www.fototime.com/4989B698C051FB2/standard.jpg

As for the rifle, it is totally original for the 1908 period, except for the later buttplate. It has a no-bolt WES-marked stock, a non-grooved handguard and the earlier "strapped" fixed rear sight base. It came with a Rock Island 1907-marked sling and nickeled oiler, in addition to the manual. I have received offers to clean off and recrown the pitted muzzle of the rifle but have decided to leave it as/is.

It is one of the very few firearms I own in which I can trace the history. It is mentioned in SRS, but as an "oops" - supposedly with the 10th Cavalry in the early 1920s, but obviously in error, since it has been out of circulation since 1908 (the SRS record was probably RIA 78180). I offered to send SRS the research I had done to help them correct the mistake, but they declined.

Detailed pictures below.

Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 06:46
Here are some more detailed pictures of the rifle:

http://www.fototime.com/97615ACE8EA7A86/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7846D47B3D242E7/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/14932EE77A852AE/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/18E779CC8A3F83E/standard.jpg

(Note: The rust has since been removed)

http://www.fototime.com/6D0AF921AE6CF63/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A81F4D8CF1E2FB9/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/194E19B12E61BA1/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/04388D7E34C3949/standard.jpg

RCK
03-04-2013, 07:47
Thanks Rick for the firearm history lesson. We need more threads like this to really appreciate our "03" enthusiasm!

Allen Humphrey
03-04-2013, 07:53
Great story Rick, thanks for sharing it. It is cool how you were able to connect all the clues to uncover the history. The rifle is like a perfect time capsule.

Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 08:06
By the way, if anyone would like a MS Works copy of the whole article I wrote for the magazine (as it was typed), feel free to email me at rrsbls[at]msn.com (make usual substitution)

RtL

RCS
03-04-2013, 08:25
This SA 1903 came from a gunsmith's estate about twenty years ago. The serial number is 160963 and the barrel is SA 2-07, everything appears original to the rifle, bore is nice too.

Kurt
03-04-2013, 08:50
Thank you gentlemen, you have some amazing pieces of history!!!

Kurt

Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 09:49
Interesting, RCS, that your stock has the "slots" for the earlier FRSB. My rifle has only the later one. I have anothjer rifle (230,477) that does have the earlier stock, like yours.

I like all M1903s, but the pre-WWI rifles are works of art IMHO!

Fred
03-04-2013, 01:56
That's really interesting Rick! Thanks! I love those early 03's! It makes me want to buy another such rifle (like I'll ever have the available cash in my pocket to do so...!). I've owned two of them with 05 barrels and for all I know, one or both might've been in 30-03. I never looked at the rear sights. I was stupid for not doing so. Say, could you please take a toothbrush and oil to that muzzle and front sight? Just enough to get the rust off? You don't have to take a wire wheel to it, just scrub the Rust out of it with a nylon brush. To have red rust on an 03 makes me queezy in my gut. :icon_e_sad:

Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 05:03
You can relax, Fred - the rust was cleaned out long ago. I just included some "before" pictures so you could see what it looked like when I got it. "After" pictures below:

http://www.fototime.com/3DB4E9ED0256939/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/B123F2F88807E8F/standard.jpg

joem
03-04-2013, 05:31
Looks good and a really neat story. Will you or have you shot it?

Fred
03-04-2013, 07:02
You can relax, Fred - the rust was cleaned out long ago. I just included some "before" pictures so you could see what it looked like when I got it. "After" pictures below:

http://www.fototime.com/3DB4E9ED0256939/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/B123F2F88807E8F/standard.jpg

Wow! :eek: That really cleaned up GREAT!!! Beautiful Rick! :icon_salut: :1948:

Rick the Librarian
03-04-2013, 07:45
Looks good and a really neat story. Will you or have you shot it?

The bore is toast and I don't shoot my LN M1903s, especially the "archival" ones like this one.

stevekaw
03-05-2013, 01:37
Beautiful rifle. That pre-WWI blued armory wire finish is so attractive!

Fred
03-05-2013, 07:54
Man, I'm going to have to go in search of another early 03 for myself now. I'll just start putting stuff on ebay until I have a big J.D. Clampet roll of money to buy it with IF I can ever find one as nice as yours Rick.
About that bad bore, too bad that it's buggered, but I was just thinking, sometimes putting two or three rounds down such a bore helps to miraculously clean a lot of the crud out. Just saying. Don't screw your rifle up doing it. However, I once had one such early 1903 with an 05 dated barrel that had a sewer pipe bore. I mean it had severe pits. I scrubbed it out and then, using the peep sight and a bench rest, put three rounds of Black Talon through it at a target 100 yards off. It put all three rounds into the six oclock position of the seven inch black bullseye that were in a perfect Delta shape. All three rounds were exactly 1/4" apart. Quite a group from that old rifle. I didn't shoot it anymore though as I found out what I needed to know. 1, that Jesus must love me because the rifle didn't blow and 2, that sometimes old rifles could still group well with a badly eroded bore.

Kurt
03-05-2013, 08:26
Fred,
What if #1 didn't prove out...LOL

Kurt

Fred
03-05-2013, 08:30
Well Kurt, in that event, I guess I never would've found out about #2. :eek:

Kurt
03-05-2013, 08:42
I suppose you wouldn't know about #1 either...the loved ones would perhaps...:eusa_boohoo:

You know I'd have done the same thing though...LOL

Fred
03-05-2013, 08:44
http://www.fototime.com/14932EE77A852AE/standard.jpg



My god, it looks as if a Tater had been stuck on the end of that barrel! :eek:

Fred
03-05-2013, 08:52
I suppose you wouldn't know about #1 either...the loved ones would perhaps...:eusa_boohoo:

You know I'd have done the same thing though...LOL

It woulda been all over but the cryin eh Kurt? However, I've shot all of my early 03's... with excellent ammo.

Rick the Librarian
03-05-2013, 02:18
My god, it looks as if a Tater had been stuck on the end of that barrel! :eek:

My wife guessed (and I agreed) that the rifle had been up, muzzle-end first, on a concrete floor that had gotten damp. The person I bought the rifle from, said he had gotten it and a lot of other stuff from a storage unit, that had either gone unpaid or unclaimed. I'm guesing possibly the grandson of John Gillie. It still doesn't look great, but MUCH better than in the picture above.

wsfbernie
03-11-2013, 03:10
Yes, both rifles are beautiful! The oil did wonders to the Gille weapon. The bluing on those
old rifles is as fine as the trapdoors. Parkerization is more military, but that old bluing is
gorgeous. Thanks for an opportunity to view TWO original, early, m1903 rifles. Rare sight!:icon_lol:

Randy A
03-13-2013, 10:37
He would have shot that rifle at the Rocker Range, which is still a functional range. It's neat to see, iron frames with square bolts, cast iron pulleys and cable counterweights. Check out the photos of the Schuetzen house there, (they did put a new roof on it). If he ever shot that rifle, he would have shot it here, it is the only range around Butte and just over the hill from the mine. According to the history, it was a "very" busy place.

http://s72.beta.photobucket.com/user/DPhariss/media/Schuetzen%20House/P1030795.jpg.html#/user/DPhariss/media/Schuetzen%20House/P1030798.jpg.html?&_suid=136323575523408247323874153287

Rick the Librarian
03-13-2013, 10:46
Excellent pictures! Thanks!