Remington Model 1911 UMC

[alanroseman]

Hello Folks,

I do not have a complete history of the UMC, but I do have some information.

The UMC was brought back to the USA by Capt. William Sommerville from his tour in the Africa Corp during WWII.

He stored the UMC in a footlocker, in his basement until the 1970's.

It has been in my possession since approximately 1974. I also have the original holster and web belt.

Every cartouche is evident, including the barrel marking. The UMC even has the original magazine (clip) which has a slightly more extended butt than the replacement magazines.

I'm curious where you folks might place the value, as I'm interested in setting out for auction with a well known auction company..

A few of the images would not upload... the barrel has the correct stamp as well..

Help would be appreciated!

[da gimp]

faded pretty bad but this you know..........I'd still rate it NRA good... unless in person it looked rougher.good luck to you.......near mint it ain't........... & the big money buyers want it either NIB or very, very close to mint condition.

[alanroseman]

I was under the impression that this particular gun is quite difficult to find. Only 22,000 produced. That combined with the fact that it has not been refinished and has its original holster rendered it quite valuable. Then again, I may be wrong.

[da gimp]

it is what I call in near rough condition.............& condition is everything........ sorry.

[Bayonetman]

Having sold one of these not all that long ago in somewhat better condition (although photos can be deceiving) I have to agree with dagimp. Collectors who are willing to spend serious money are VERY condition oriented. Every percent less finish from like new can devalue the piece sometimes by as much as 10% or more until you get down to 95% or so when the slope starts to level out. Mine was all correct, finish was about 90% although it had faded toward brown in some areas. It was shown to several serious collectors at three major shows and although all showed interest, the offers were all well below what a near mint piece would bring (by about 50%). Still sold for more than a Colt in similar condition, but only by a relatively small amount. By the time a major auction house sells it (if they are even interested) and takes their cut (usually more than you think - 25 to 30 percent or even more is common) you probably could sell it privately for as much or more as you would realize from the auction. For top dollar a piece must have three things - Condition, rarity and desirability. This one has only fair rarity and condition although the desirability is fairly high.

[Richard1911]

I like it and would be proud to have it in my collection. Here is a thought for you on the auction business....RIA I think gets 20% ouch so go look at the one that sold last December. There is a dreamer on GB.com I have been trying to work with and his is a real dog and notice it has NEVER been bid on. It is worth what someone will pay and that's about it. I know a guy that would buy yours in that condition if it was priced for condition.

[alanroseman]

da gimp: No reason to be sorry. it's just a gun, I didn't design it, build it or invent it... I appreciate the feedback. Again, I understand the condition, but I do disagree that condition "is everything". I'd say condition would be relative to scarcity, and this model has plenty of scarcity.

Richard 1911. The James T Julia auction house has the images, they feel it will do quite well especially as it has its original scabbard / holster. They have in fact attached a fairly significant number as a reserve price should I proceed. Of course they spend considerable time and money advertising their auctions to ensure serious collectors will be aware of what is upcoming.

I'm not a collector of militaria, or 1911's. That said, I have fairly strong provenance, the original web belt and scabbard, all of the numbers and markings are correct, and it is the rarest of the 1911's according to most known sources.

I do notice that while folks here are commenting on condition and value by percentages, as yet none has ventured forth with a dollar amount... Any special reason there?

[alanroseman]

Hello Folks,

The images I sent were not very flattering to the gun.
They were taken with harsh angled lighting to accentuate the markings, stamps and cartouche.

This may help you guys get a feel for the entire package as memorabilia ..

These images present the gun along with its accessories.
Original Scabbard / dated and inspection stamped.
Original khaki web belt stamped US.

I/m told it is quite rare to have the complete, unrestored ensemble...

Does this help at all?

[Richard1911]

That's because everyone wants a deal or to not offer more than what the price is you have established in your mind.
Some people have more money than brains and others are more frugal when it comes to their hobby.

[alanroseman]

Thanks Richard, I believe you are correct in that assessment. Feel free to contact me via private email if you can offer some consult on this issue.

Cheers, Alan

[Richard1911]

Already done

[alanroseman]

Hello Richard,

Not sure which email address you used, but I have not received it as of yet...

alanroseman@me.com

[Richard1911]

Already done.

[Richard1911]

It was a pm I am emailing now

[John C]

It is good that you have the original holster, belt, etc with this pistol. Looking on ebay or other websites, a WW1 holster and belt would set you back......Mmmmmmmm $200 max? Your belt and holster may be "original" with the pistol but lets face it, there is really no way to prove that. As well as they look, in the end they are just another accessory that can be found and added to a pistol to complete a "rig" whether it was done 80 years ago or 3 years ago. As for the auction houses.........of course they are going to tell you what you would like to hear it is money in their pocket no matter if it sells for what they told you it might sell for or some lesser amount. You may come out better financially selling the pistol on your on. Just my .02$

John

[Shooter5]

Why did RemUMC get into the pistol business? Where they and others looking to expand into more government contracts? Was Colt and Springfield production not enough to meet demand?
I can see why WW2 production occurred at different mfg's but it seems that in WW1 by the time the US stepped in the end ended relatively soon after.

[alanroseman]

Hello All,

Thanks for your contributions and opinions regards the 1911 UMC. Since posting here last evening, the gun sold to a collector who saw it on this site.

It sold for an amount consistent with that offered by James. T Julia...

It's been quite a learning experience for me.

Cheers,

[alanroseman]

PS. here's an unsolicited plug for this forum.

I came here yesterday, posted my question, and received several offers from around the US in less than 24 hours... all substantial.

It's quite obvious that serious collectors pay attention to this forum... while they may not post, they sure do know exactly what they're looking for.

More importantly, they know what they're looking at. There was zero hesitation from a few knowledgeable collectors.

Great job with this Board & Forum!!

Cheers, Alan

[Johnny P]

Why did RemUMC get into the pistol business? Where they and others looking to expand into more government contracts? Was Colt and Springfield production not enough to meet demand?
I can see why WW2 production occurred at different mfg's but it seems that in WW1 by the time the US stepped in the end ended relatively soon after.

There was a huge shortage of handguns to equip the troops when the U.S. got into WWI. Ordnance went to Colt and S&W to buy revolvers since the models were already in production, and only minor changes were needed to meet the military needs.

Remington-UMC ended up with a contract 500,000 Model 1911 pistols, but the war ended and slightly less than 22,000 were delivered before the contract was cancelled.

In addition to Remington-UMC, contracts were also issued to eight other firms for the manufacture of the Model 1911, but the war ended and the contracts cancelled with no pistols being delivered.

[PhillipM]

Why did RemUMC get into the pistol business? Where they and others looking to expand into more government contracts? Was Colt and Springfield production not enough to meet demand?
I can see why WW2 production occurred at different mfg's but it seems that in WW1 by the time the US stepped in the end ended relatively soon after.


There was a huge shortage of handguns to equip the troops when the U.S. got into WWI. Ordnance went to Colt and S&W to buy revolvers since the models were already in production, and only minor changes were needed to meet the military needs.

Remington-UMC ended up with a contract 500,000 Model 1911 pistols, but the war ended and slightly less than 22,000 were delivered before the contract was cancelled.

In addition to Remington-UMC, contracts were also issued to eight other firms for the manufacture of the Model 1911, but the war ended and the contracts cancelled with no pistols being delivered.

Because Springfield embarrassingly could not produce enough rifles for the war, they stopped production of the 1911 to increase 1903 production.

[Johnny P]

Because Springfield embarrassingly could not produce enough rifles for the war, they stopped production of the 1911 to increase 1903 production.

Springfield Armory Model 1911 production was never high enough to make much of a difference. The first order for 1911 pistols from Springfield Armory was placed in late 1912. By the end of pistol production in 1917 they had managed to produce slightly under 26,000 pistols.

Springfield Armory was never geared up to mass produced huge quantities of weapons, and probably never anticipated having to supply weapons for the magnitude of a world war.