This cant be normal

[LARscout]

So I found out why the wheel on my Webley can still rotate left and right about 1/8in when locked and ready to shoot.
This is my first and last revolver so I have no experience as to whether this is something to be expected.

There is a rectangular notch above the trigger that clicks into a larger/wider rectangular depression on the wheel. The depression Im talking about is along the center under and above the letter B on the diagram.


Some immediate concerns are...if there is so much of this movement...the pin might strike the primer offcenter and the chamber may not even perfectly align with the barrel...thus deforming the bullet and creating other problems.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/files/2012/02/Webley-2.jpg

[M1Garandy]

I think there was a thread on Milsurps.com about this in the recent past but I can't find it.

EDIT: I found it but it relates to Enfield revolvers, not sure how or if it would apply to a Webley: http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=41367&highlight=enfield

Perhaps you could post over there and ask Peter Laidler?

[wiley]

These fully lock up the cylinder when the trigger is fully back and the hammer is in the fired position.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

I've heard of this on other revolvers -- often wear of either the cylinder lock-up piece (I think "bolt," but don't bet the farm that's the right terminology) or the depressions on the cylinder may cause this play.

Again, IIRC, this can often be fixed by replacing the cylinder lock-up piece (bolt?) or the cylinder or both.

[LARscout]

The design of the lock up piece is itself 2x smaller than the depression it clicks into. I dont know if the British anticipated this by adding the two wing type pieces of metal under the barrel so that the gases and lead shavings dont cut up the fingers and knuckles of the shooter.

I took the pistol out to the range today for the first time and pretty much everything I expected to happen actually did take place.
Every 3rd-4th time or so sometimes, the pin would hit off center on the primer and miss the internal anvil (not activating the primer)....thus creating a mechanical misfire, causing me to skip that round and return to it later.

I put a piece of target paper off to the left of where I'd be shooting from and later on I noticed how peppered it became due to the tiny lead shavings coming out of the space between the wheel and barrel. The shavings acted literally like tiny 1mm long shrapnel (good thing I shoot one handed).

Despite all of this...the loose fitting .452 230gr LRN did well in the .455 bore. Sized at 1.230 (like the original .455 Webley) , I loaded small batches of 3.5grs...4.0, 4.2 and 4.5grs of Trail Boss. Grouped well at 25yds (about 3-4in) The lower power loads started in lower right corner (no noticeable difference in 3.5, 3.9 and 4.0grs) With increasing charges, the impacts came left and centered themselves 2in low of the target with a 6 o'clock hold. A center hold on the bullseye got me on target.

Got quite a few hits on the 50yd swing plate, made my day needless to say.

I really didnt expect things to work out so well on a 94yr old revolver.

[kcw]

I've heard of this on other revolvers -- often wear of either the cylinder lock-up piece (I think "bolt," but don't bet the farm that's the right terminology) or the depressions on the cylinder may cause this play.

Again, IIRC, this can often be fixed by replacing the cylinder lock-up piece (bolt?) or the cylinder or both.

You're correct, the spring loaded piece that pops up out of the frame to engage the notches in the cylinder is called the bolt or cylinder catch. I had the simliar issue with a LLama 22RF revolver, several issues really. The first was the notches in the rear of the extractor, which are engaged by the "hand" which rotates the bolt, were soft, this caused them to prematurely wear due to contact with the "hand". The wear issue resulted in the cylinder not turning fully enough to cause the bolt to lock up on several cylinders during slow, double action fire. I believe the technical term for this would be "inadequate throw". This would cause the round to be off center enough to shave lead. If I cranked the hammer back with my thumb so as to impart enough inertia into the cylinder so as too rotate it fully to "lock up" position I didn't have a shave issue. Fortunately my dealer replaced the extractor under warranty. But then I had an issue wherein the bolt wouldn't rise up fast/far enough to engage the cylinder during rapid fire, sort of a "skip" issue. That left the cylinder in prettymuch any position when the hammer came down! The issue there was a weak/short cylinder catch spring resulting in the cylinder catch not rising fast or far enough to catch a fast movng cylinder. The dealer fashioned a suitable length of generic coil spring out of his spare parts drawer. That has taken care of that problem for the past 35 years.
LARscout, you note that the width of the cylinder notches is approx double the thickness of the cylinder catch. Are the sides of the notches in the cylinder fairly straight, or do they seem to be "bowed" from wear, resulting in "slopp". Have you determined of the cylinder catch is abnormally worn thin? I think that you'd have to remove the cylinder catch from the gun so as to measure its base
Anyway, I'd be looking at either wear or spring issues as noted above.

[kcw]

What it all likely comes down to LARscout, is what is known as "timing"; how all the various parts are employed so as to move the cylinder into "battery" or "lockup" position so that the round may be safely discharged. I might suggest that you do some research into "Revolver timing". There are any number of articles on the subject. I would imagine that if you glean through a half dozen of the better ones you should have a pretty good idea as to how a basic system works and how to scout out your piece for problems, of which there may be several.
What you want to have happen is for the cylinder lock/bolt to FULLY engage the notch in the cylinder at some point PRIOR to the point where the sear will disengage from the trigger. Here's a basic test. WITH THE GUN UNLOADED, hold it sideways to a light source so that you can see between the frame and the lower edge of the cylinder. VERY SLOWLY pull the trigger so as to rotate the cylinder. At some point before the sear is released you should BOTH see AND hear the cylinder lock "snap/click" FULLY into the notch in the cylinder. This should happen on EVERY cylinder. If the sear releases before the cylinder lock pops into the notch then you have a timing issue. Repeat the same test by thumbing back the hammer for "single action" fire. Here again, the cylinder lock should FULLY engage the notch in the cylinder at some point prior to the hammer reaching the "cocked" positon. With either the double or single action test, there should bit a bit of "lash" after the cylinder lock engages the notch, which to say that both the trigger or hammer need to still move rearward a suitable distance AFTER the cylinder FULLY locks up for safety purposes. Assuming all of this checks out, there's still the issue of the lock/bolt being half the thickness of the cylinder notch which it engages. That just sounds like WAY too much slop.

[LARscout]

Gents, thanks for your time and concern.
Here are a few more puzzle pieces


When you cock the hammer, there's a second notch that pops up and it Im guessing is supposed to lock the 1st notch in place
http://i45.tinypic.com/4kzqc9.jpg

http://i46.tinypic.com/33yjte0.jpg

The 1/8in wobble is between these two notches not agreeing with one another.
From what I can eyeball, there is about a .06in gap in the hole from which the small notch pops out from. The larger notch shows little wear. Overall, I dont think the Brits had much ammo even on an annual basis to practice with these. The myth is that they were only given 12rds at the armory and went on to fight the war.


Primers, from what I can tell line up decently in the window that the firing pin hits through. Problem is Ive been having some gas leakage on the edges of the primer cup. The 45 AR brass is still on its first loading, but the ACP brass seems to work better.

All casings (both ACP and AR) are covered with residue on the outside.

I think this thing can be considered on the hazardous side of actually shooting with live ammo, considering the butchered cylinder, poorly fitting pieces and it's still accurate as hell on the 50yd swing plate.

[kcw]

LARscout,
Look up the discussion for "Webly double-action timing problem" @ British militaria forums. There's something there about that rear lug coming up too low to properly catch and hold the cylinder. Apparently THAT rear lug is the primary cylinder stop. I can see where if that lug was not properly engaging the cylinder, leaving only that thinner forward "Catch" , you'd have the slop issues you discribe.