The 1911 "fatal flaw" controversy

[bobby L]

Hi all,

I was somewhat surprised to read about the controversy caused by using the the second finger to pull the trigger while using the index to quickly line up the muzzle of the pistol to the target. I was a 2nd lt. in the army and never was taught that method of firing the 45. At least I can't recall it and I know I never read the manual, warning of it's use.
However I do have a 1911 that I shoot and I had somehow dislodged the slide stop pin while firing it on two occasions. It probably had everthing to do with my grip.

The way that I corrected this problem, (which was probably my problem and not the pistol's), was to dimple the slide stop pin where the plunger spring contacted it. It never happened again but my "give up" was in not having the slide lock back against the slide stop pin after the last shot was fired. Since I was shooting on the range and not for my life, that seemed to be a reasonable give up.
The Slide stop pin I dimpled was an extra part I bought and i'll be experimenting further with altering it slightly again in an attempt to get the slide to lock back with the stop after that last shot.

In any event, I think it can be safely stated that any real "fatal flaw" in a confrontation with a 1911 has to be in facing one... without having one. It is still the king of pistols in my book!

[SMOKEY]

IMO the only flaw in the .45 is that they arent current issue. Sure the 9's hold more rounds but when it takes more to put your target down what have you gained? Now this is only my opinion and opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one some just crappier than others. Let the comments begin.

[Johnny P]

The person that came up with the "fatal flaw" must have been a writer for one of the gun rags. Who in their right mind would point their finger to acquire a target. Must have been a slow day around the old water cooler.

[bobby L]

Target shooting and reacting to a threat are of course two different things entirely. I can see the logic and value of pointing shooting at the target instead of using the sights, especially when there is more than one threat to deal with. This method of using the index finger would appear to work fine for MOST PISTOLS, and the US Army apparently agrees, but I've never experienced any training with this method, which makes sense if the .45 was the only pistol being issued at the time and the slide pin had that tendency to drift out during recoil when pressured by the index finger.

Personally, in addition to the slide stop problem with the .45, I found that when I tried dry firing using this method, the tightening of my gripping two fingers against my thumb weakened the pressure on the grip safety to the point where it didn't always freely disengage. Probably as a result of the size of my hand more than anything else, but still unacceptable in a shootout situation.

I totally agree with the other posters that the "fatal flaw" was at best an overreaction at not being able to use the alternate shooting method on the 1911. The countless thousands of lives John Browning's great invention has saved over it's long illustrious history far outshadows any perceived fatal flaws with this great pistol. Racking that hand cannon in the middle of night would have the same effect as charging a shotgun for me.... and probably a homeowner, and would be suicide for the home invader as well!

[Guamsst]

In an unrelated related story....I loved shooting my CZ52 with my thumb resting in the grip notch for the safety. I tried allot of holds and that one gave me the most consistency when I was quickdrawing on light switches before taking it to the range. At the range though, after a few rounds, trigger pull would become insanely heavy. About the third mag, the trigger locked and try as hard as I could, I could not fire the pistol. My thumb was bumping the safety on each shot and pushing it part way to the "safe" position. It was resetting with each mag swap then working its way back up.

Most pistols are designed by smart people who assume shooters are going to use a standard hold. If you do something odd and the pistol has a problem, it is your flaw, not the pistols.

[bobby L]

Guamsst
I agree and I wonder how much "hollow wood" is responsible for the unconventional handling of firearms by how they are used in their movies. It seems hollywood's guns never run out of ammunition and the hero's bullets never miss and the only requirement is that the actors " look cool" when doing the shooting. Sometimes Hollywood's inexperience with firearms shows as in the "Movie Stand By Me". Apparently Rob Reiner or as Archie Bunker correctly called him, "meathead", never actually fired A 1911 before making his Picture. One of the scenes at the end of the movie has a kid firing a 1911 in the air to get a bully's attention, and then re-cocking the hammer of the same pistol to let the bully know he really really meant business... Too bad meat head never fired one or he would have known the hammer was already cocked after that first round.

[Shooter5]

The potential for a slide malfunction is real; personally, it has occurred once with a USGI issue M1911A1 while deployed. I determined what/how it happened due to placement of fingers and the solution was to modify the slide release by shortening its length so as to seat it countersunk below the frame slightly less than flush.

The FBI issue 1911's have this type of slide release as does the commercial TRP.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=11

[Guamsst]

modify the slide release by shortening its length so as to seat it countersunk below the frame slightly less than flush.

The FBI issue 1911's have this type of slide release as does the commercial TRP.


Sweet, 3 minutes and a dremel and I'll have another custom part :D

[Johnny P]

fatal: leading to failure

Since the design is now north of 100 years old and seems to be stronger than ever, when did it fail?

[Ken Hill]

I wonder how well this pointer grip works with a revolver. I can only imagine the damage to the tip of the index finger when it finds itself in the path of the gas discharge between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

The real question is "what was in the water cooler?"

Back to the 1911! Altering the slide stop is not a new idea. If I recall correctly the early government models (serial # ca 20,000 to 105,000) had a slot milled into the face of the slide stop where it met the plunger.

[Shooter5]

Sweet, 3 minutes and a dremel and I'll have another custom part :D

That is exactly what happened; apparently Brownells didn''t have a store in Baghdad.

[Shooter5]

.

Most pistols are designed by smart people who assume shooters are going to use a standard hold. If you do something odd and the pistol has a problem, it is your flaw, not the pistols.

That relates precisely to the issue; the slide release malfunction can occur due to hand placement BECAUSE a two-handed grip in the 19th/early 20th century was essentially non-existent! Everyone was taught to shoot a pistol with a single-hand, thus, the idea that the slide release could even be manipulated during the firing sequence was inconceivable during its design and early use.
Currently, the opposite is now true; shooting a pistol one-handed is seen as crazy! The solution, however, is simple and one does not have to change grip/hand placement; merely modify the slide release and its G2G.

[Johnny P]

I think someone touched on this, but the Bro's in the hood prefer the sideways hold where the index finger could substitute for the sights. Taking it a step further, the sights could be removed entirely if the index finger becomes the preferred sighting method.

[Shooter5]

IMO the only flaw in the .45 is that they arent current issue.

Some US Military units are still issued the M1911 series; the USMC is calling their latest version the M45.

http://www.colt.com/ColtMilitary/News/tabid/84/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/54/Colt-Defense-LLC-Announces-Award-of-Marine-Corps-M45-Close-Quarter-Battle-Pistol-CQBP-Contract.aspx

Other US military units also still have access to the M1911A1 as an alternative issue depending on preference such as dissatisfaction with the M9 and/or other makes/models/calibers. However, it is not as popular anymore and if a 45ACP is sought, it is much more likely to either be a modern design or the occasional modern manufacture of some type of 1911.

[emmagee1917]

I think someone touched on this, but the Bro's in the hood prefer the sideways hold where the index finger could substitute for the sights. Taking it a step further, the sights could be removed entirely if the index finger becomes the preferred sighting method.

Naw , just adapted.
Well pooo , can't get the pics of a Glock with sights on the side of the slide to post.
sorry ,
Chris

[Guamsst]

...Currently, the opposite is now true; shooting a pistol one-handed is seen as crazy! The solution, however, is simple and one does not have to change grip/hand placement; merely modify the slide release and its G2G.

I generally shoot two handed and find no reason to put any part of my hands on the slide release on a 1911. I'm not sure what these FBI guys are doing to cause a problem, but it's an easy fix. I can't blame the pistol though as I assume everyone here agrees.

As to your comments about old pistols Vs. new holds. I have had to show people the difference many times. For example, on a model 37 Hungarian Femaru If I pull it up two handed "SWAT STYLE" I will surely hit somewhere in the vicinity of your torso from 2yds away. But if I swing it up one handed, long armed, the sights go right where I want them and line up well.

Same thing on the British Enfield revolver. Despite all the complaints about trigger pull and accuracy, I can be quick and accurate one handed at 25yds. Probably quicker (accurately) than two handed but I never tested this.

KNOW YOUR WEAPON!!

[Shooter5]

I generally shoot two handed and find no reason to put any part of my hands on the slide release on a 1911. I'm not sure what these FBI guys are doing to cause a problem, but it's an easy fix. I can't blame the pistol though as I assume everyone here agrees.



One of the common techniques is "High Hands & Much Meat"; as in, get the hand(s) as high on the frame as possible and as much surface area of the hand(s) as possible. So, depending on hand size, preference and how the fingers on the supporting hand wrap around the firing hand and the frame - the supporting (left) hands finger (usually index or middle finger) is left pressing on the frame and it can (inadvertently) contact the slide release pressing in on it hard enough to the point during slide recoil that it is pressed enough to cause it to pop out during the fraction of a second the slide aligns with the 'sweet spot' for the take-down slot.
Leveling off the slide release section that protrudes from the side of the frame to such a degree that it is essentially countersunk will virtually eliminate the potential for this type of malfunction to occur.
It is unclear by what is meant by "blaming the pistol" since it is, in fact, an aspect of its design. And since a proven firing technique is 'not to blame' either, the potential for a malfunction obviously calls for a solution hence the slide release modification. I am certain that if JMB and the US Army could have had the foresight to envision the day when pistols would be fired two-handed then he would have pre-engineered some type of feature to preclude its possible occurrence in the first place. Recall the fact the military was still riding horses and the manual of arms for those drills mandates one-handed firing in addition to the Camp Perry style target stances of dismounted training then taught. Thus, it understandable that this type of malfunction was inconceivable back in those days.
Like most technology, the 1911 is adaptable for modern techniques.

[Guamsst]

When you call it a "fatal flaw" that is "blaming the pistol".

I can see a lefty hitting the slide release I guess if they are really high with their right hand. To me though, this is like saying Harleys are defective because if you ride sidesaddle and lean way over, you may burn yourself on the exhaust.

[Shooter5]

The analogy is not relevant because body positioning in an unsafe and unconventional manner when cycling is playing with fire; your going to get burned! In contrast, proper hand position with the modern two-handed technique is completely within the bounds of conventional technique and thus, part of proscribed manual of arms and proper usage. By definition, military hardware must be reliable/durable/trustworthy, etc. In addition, it ought not to have any quirks/idiosyncrasies that lend themselves to potential malfunctions at anytime much less under stress of combat. There is zero sense in utilizing a weapon system that entails all of the above...but allow it an exception retaining the caveat that it can be held every which way EXCEPT 'it cannot be held using a common two-handed technique that may lend itself to a critical malfunction' - well, that simply won't fly in this era. It is not even possible to teach a grip technique to somehow avoid placing the fingers near the slide release protrusion because hand placement under stress and shifts under recoil will guarantee they will end up where least wanted at the most critical moment. Having had it happen once in a combat zone - which was once too many - considerations quickly boil down to either utilizing a different weapon system since sticking with the current model yields itself to potential problems or; a method to modify the current system must be implemented so as to allow reliable use across the complete spectrum of potential hand placement schemes.
The 1911 system is still great for serious duty such as what the military or FBI use may entail but avoiding discussion and mitigation for its potential to malfunction in its original configuration much less refrain from calling it what it is (i.e., inducing a jam during the middle of a firefight certainly fits the description of 'fatal') is illogical. A simple factual review indicates the weapon can jam with the modern two-handed grip for some users in rare circumstances. Combat use does not lend itself to an allowance for 'rare occurrences' because that is a recipe for playing the odds that too often in combat begin to exhibit a much higher frequency! If an agency wants to continue to consider its relevance the issue has to be dealt with otherwise no commander could possibly be justified in issuing such a system when and if it could lead to a potential malfunction under the most dire circumstances.

[Guamsst]

Ok, and how does your first little piggy get out of the hole where the trigger thingy is while firing?

Like I said, I can see it for a lefty, but a righty has to try to engage the "fatal flaw". I'm sorry, but I have trouble admitting any "flaw" of a 100yr+ service pistol which is admired worldwide, because........ if you hold your finger over the end of the pin, where you really shouldn't, it might slide the pin out.

If you hold a two handed sword one handed, is the sword flawed.....or the hold?

[Shooter5]

Weapons design evolves hence the hand-and-a-half sword. I have enjoyed the discussion, however, the debate is over for the likes of the FBI and they have moved on; it is a real enough issue for them to demand a design change to the slide release pin. The latest versions of the 1911 have a type of countersunk rim around the pin hole. (I will try to post a pic of one of the prototypes the M45 is based on)
The earliest versions of the M16 series did not have any fencing around the magazine release button; it changed to a raised bracket around it because experience conclusively demonstrated the mag release was being inadvertently being activated. Obviously, not good for combat weapon. Instead of complaining about it and saying a righty's hand 'shouldn't' be anywhere near the button or attempting to do the impossible and tell troops to 'keep your finger off' the button, the design had to change.

[joem]

"Like I said, I can see it for a lefty, but a righty has to try to engage the "fatal flaw".

I shoot either left or right handed. I have not had the problems as described. As far as placing the index finger up by the cylinder of a revolver, it's a recipe for finger loss.

[bobby L]

Thanks Ken. I'll take my dremel to the slidestop over the weekend.

[Ken Hill]

Thanks Ken. I'll take my dremel to the slidestop over the weekend.

Whoa! Please don't thank me and if you must, maybe an .005" cut using a file at the correct point in the slide stop. The goal is to make a slight indent if you feel you have to. The indents are only found on early commercial models made with quality forged and machined slide stops. It made assembly and disassembly more difficult, therefore possibly not suitable for the military issue. Additionally, half of these early GM pistols went to Russia.

The current production pistols are generally fitted with MIM slide stops that have poor tolerances and are likely to wear more than machined steel making them:

A: A prime candidate for the "fatal flaw" if one was so inclined to shoot that way. or
B: Slotted to make certain the poorly fitted part stayed where it should. and
C: "If it ain't broke don't fix it!"


Personally I wouldn't worry about the silly idea but would change any MIM part for something better.

[John Sukey]

Odd, I always thought the only flaw in a 1911 was that the trigger was not double action for the first round.

[Johnny P]

Wonder if you put your thumb in the trigger guard and squeezed the grip safety with your forefinger that would also qualify as a "fatal flaw"?

[Ken Hill]

Wonder if you put your thumb in the trigger guard and squeezed the grip safety with your forefinger that would also qualify as a "fatal flaw"?

Absolutely! Well maybe not.

[John Sukey]

Wonder if you put your thumb in the trigger guard and squeezed the grip safety with your forefinger that would also qualify as a "fatal flaw"?

Probably, since the muzzle wouod be pointed at you!

[Johnny P]

Probably, since the muzzle wouod be pointed at you!

Very observant.

[Shooter5]

http://www.tactical-life.com/tactical-weapons/amu-pipeline-for-spec-ops-weapons/

[Guamsst]

Weapons design evolves hence the hand-and-a-half sword. I have enjoyed the discussion, however, the debate is over for the likes of the FBI and they have moved on; it is a real enough issue for them to demand a design change to the slide release pin..

Yes, weapons design evolves....hence the Glock which does not have this same pin. I stand by my view that if you are putting your finger on the pin while firing then you have the wrong hold for the 1911. As to it being a "serious" issue. It took a very minor change to fix a problem that is very uncommon unless ofcourse you have a hold that pushes on the pin.

In the end, I like a recessed pin better anyways....it just looks cleaner. I chopped mine tonight. It took a good 5 minutes but I tried to make it look as clean as possible.

[usmodel1873]

Looking at a Beretta 92 one will notice that it too has a "fatal flaw" then. The end of the take-down latch protrudes out the right side so if one pushed it while shooting and the take-down lever rotated the slide could fly off the front!

[Ken Hill]

Looking at a Beretta 92 one will notice that it too has a "fatal flaw" then. The end of the take-down latch protrudes out the right side so if one pushed it while shooting and the take-down lever rotated the slide could fly off the front!

Not only that but the M9 (Model 92) can be field stripped by the person you've pointed it at!

[Shooter5]

Its a bit more complicated than that: The M9 has a button/cam with the takedown lever which must be manipulated at the same time to be fieldstripped. The current button model has the button/cam device to preclude simply rotating the takedown lever. (IIRC, this occurred in the 1980s? with the LAPD during some scuffles which led to the current redesign - someone can correct the specific details). It would be a rare occurrence in combat for an enemy to be savvy/strong enough to be able to quickly disassemble an M9 during H2H. Of the few documented cases of H2H where it was going bad for the USA Home Team, the enemy still ended up DRT/DOA/KIA. Example:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-19-silver-star-cover_x.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20070826140817/http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200653191254

[Shooter5]

I stand by my view that if you are putting your finger on the pin while firing then you have the wrong hold for the 1911. As to it being a "serious" issue. It took a very minor change to fix a problem that is very uncommon unless ofcourse you have a hold that pushes on the pin.


True: Very Rare, indeed, is the chance of occurring. However, recall the statement it happened 'exactly once' over a decade of deployments in a combat zone: am betting there are zero takers who would agree that this an acceptable limit both in terms of episodes AND the place/circumstances/location of the event.
There is no "wrong hold" for the 1911 or any other pistol (providing your grip and finger placement do not interfere with slide/hammer cycling): there are too many factors involved to predict hand placement and it is impossible to "train" for an avoidance of hand placement, to wit, some factors include; individual grip, plus physical dimensions of the palm/digits along with hand/finger placement along with external factors such as gloves, shifts of the weapon during recoil while firing multiple rounds (which is unavoidable and inevitable) and grip configuration under stress (for example; grasping the weapon in an unplanned manner during a transition drill).
These combine to create a situation that demands a solution to the weapon system itself precisely because the above listed reasons absolutely preclude a 'solution' with each and every end user who could never collectively avoid finger placement over the slide release pin 100% of the time in all situations - odds few would be willing to buck with a combat weapon which by definition should be 100% reliable under all conditions as possible.
Hence, the modern shift to slide pin and frame modification.

[Guamsst]

Maybe I am looking at it from a purist point of view. But, considering the intended use of the weapon when it was designed, I can't see this as a flaw. If it were to happen often in a traditional hold then yes. But from an engineering point of view it isn't a flaw, just a lack of planning for future changes in how it is used. Even the knife is not 100% reliable...even blades break from time to time.

I agree wholeheartedly with taking steps to prevent this from happening (did it myself). But considering the amazing numbers of these pistols in use worldwide in Military, police and civilian use, the sheer lack of numbers of incidents supports the belief that the 1911 is damned near flawless. I know the FBI thought it was a major concern, but then again, they are a government agency so that has to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

[Dave Waits]

There's no fatal-flaw, just a Yo-Yo who wants everybody to shoot his way.

[Nate]

Funny, I have been shooting 1911s for over 50 years and never even heard of this. I think I'll try to duplicate this condition just to see how screwed up you have to do it.

[Shooter5]

Maybe I am looking at it from a purist point of view. But, considering the intended use of the weapon when it was designed, I can't see this as a flaw. If it were to happen often in a traditional hold then yes. But from an engineering point of view it isn't a flaw, just a lack of planning for future changes in how it is used. Even the knife is not 100% reliable...even blades break from time to time.

I agree wholeheartedly with taking steps to prevent this from happening (did it myself). But considering the amazing numbers of these pistols in use worldwide in Military, police and civilian use, the sheer lack of numbers of incidents supports the belief that the 1911 is damned near flawless. I know the FBI thought it was a major concern, but then again, they are a government agency so that has to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Yes, absolutely true; as designed for its intended purpose of one-handed firing the M1911 does not have a design flaw. Semantically, its moot if, when firing two-handed, whether a 'flaw' exists; the design allows for an extremely rare instance of malfunction.
A significant reason this problem never cropped up before in any significant way over the decades to about the late 1970s was because the modern techniques by Cooper or Weaver didn't gain traction until, say, the 1980s at precisely the same point in time the 1911 was dropped from standard issue. From an evolutionary design perspective; no other modern modern military or police issue sidearm has similar type of takedown system; coincidence? Probably not because all pistols worldwide are now always fired two-handed and a similar design feature such as the 1911 would have been revealed by now. That it has not is partly indicative of the evolution of pistol design to allow for unobstructed two-hand hold without the possibility of malfunction.
The more important point is one you allude to; the 1911 is adaptable to modern usage and that demonstrates its flexibility and usefulness in the modern era. Few other weapons or gear issued 100 years ago stuck around because its relevance declined. The FBI is not the only agency using the 1911 platform; look into the Kimber's LAPD was using; IIRC their frame was modified with a raised portion around the slide pin hole. Check out STI, Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and others for their thoughts and designs on the matter - many mfg's who make guns for serious users address this issue. It is not just a few fringe internet commandos making this stuff up. The latest versions of the modern 1911 the military ordered has similar design modifications - for a good reason. Of course, when spending pallets of money the customer can dictate terms, however, lethal weapons are serious business and those advising contract stipulations tend to ask for features due to real concerns. I would likewise caution for those who scoff at sound technique when shooting two-handed; if you are able to pick yourself and teeth up from the ground - respect for the Quantico Range Masters instruction is warranted and heeding theirs or any other qualified teacher wherever and whoever they are, is advisable. And if you aren't permanently banned from his range, kicked out from the course, dropped from the Academy, escorted from the premises, etc, you may get a second chance to learn how to shoot the modern two-handed technique.

Please feel free to contact any manufacturer and ask WHY their product has the modified slide pin hole features it has (if it has any at all); and please post the results to this forum.

Example from SA Custom Shop:

Other External Modifications:
❑ Standard carry bevel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
❑ Radical carry bevel (“Soap bar” feel) (Carbon steel handguns) . .
❑ Radical carry bevel (“Soap bar” feel) (Stainless steel handguns)
❑ Nub slide stop (FBI style) using existing slide stop . . . . . . . . . . . .

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=11
http://www.colt.com/ColtLawEnforcement/Products/ColtM1070CQBPM45A1.aspx
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/new/default.asp
http://www.stiguns.com/products/guns/pistols/tactical-pistols/
http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/training/hogans-alley

[Guamsst]

Shooter 5, the answer would be that it is a necessary and great improvement to overcome a seriously dangerous condition.

The truth would be. There is a very slight chance their could be a problem but we can talk it up if we make a very minor modification.

[Col. Colt]

As an old IPSC shooter who has never seen (or even heard of) a problem with the original design on the range, firing and watching many hundred's of rounds being fired, I'd say it's a long way from a "Fatal Flaw". Just don't push on the pin end, folks! If that is too complicated for you, buy a bobbed pin.

Techniques do change in unpredictable ways - that is not a design flaw.

The Glock does have a fatal flaw that guarantees none will be in working order 100 years from now, unlike the 1911, which has made it's Centennial already. (I own a 1915 Argentine that is getting close....) The tiny little "L" leaf spring that Glock uses to hold the slide lock up and keeps the slide on will eventually fail, and the slide will come off the gun. And good luck making and correctly tempering a replacement at home...... CC

[Shooter5]

Shooter 5, the answer would be that it is a necessary and great improvement to overcome a seriously dangerous condition.

The truth would be. There is a very slight chance their could be a problem but we can talk it up if we make a very minor modification.
Yes sir, agreed. FWIW; M1911A2 prototype, IIRC the slide pin is standard but the frame has an expanded dimension near/at the pin hole.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r50/joesmith_05/0418111522a_zpse4ba8f23.jpg

[Ken Hill]

The expanded frame width serves to mitigate stress cracks when the pistol is subject to torque when a light or laser is mounted on the rail. I understand you can "surf" on the wave created by a light or laser mounted on the rail of a Glock 21

[Guamsst]

Well, apparently you are all fools. I was informed buy a guy on facebook that Glock is THE GUN and the ONLY GUN anyone should have and the 1911 is an antique shelf gun not suitable for self defense.......ROFL. I don't know what burned the guy up more, my comments about how wrong he was or the 5-6 likes i got for every comment compared to his zero.

Not trashing the Glock, but there is no perfect gun for everyone. For example, my mom loves the Makarov and is really accurate with it......but can barely reach the trigger. She tried the CZ-52 and fell in love because it has a larger frame, less recoil, more power and a very short reach on the trigger. Many people with large hands would find the opposite true.

[Shooter5]

Earlier on, many Iraq military had various Tariqs, Hi-Power (both local mfg's) and assorted Soviet type guns. Didn't see much praise for the fewer Maks, and less respect for the CZ52s...which was puzzling. Not realizing yet that anything associated with the 'old way' was no longer cool, they wanted anything and everything new and associated with the US Mil.
Even though it was pointed out numerous times the AK is just fine for their needs, purposes, climate and level of care they tend to give weapons...and the fact that the CZ52s could shoot thru a car - most didn't want to hear and have anything to do with the old weapons.

[bobby L]

I wonder if that guy ever looked at U tube accounts of Glock "failures" and blowups?? That brand would be the last pistol I would consider.

[Shooter5]

It has been interesting to see how the discussion shifted to cover issues related to Glocks, however, numerous law enforcement and military units worldwide appear content and confident in the model to issue various models of the Glock- including in the USA (such as the FBI among many others including DOD).

https://www.fpds.gov/dbsight/fpdsportal?indexName=awardfull&templateName=1.4.2&s=FPDSNG.COM&q=148099450+DEPARTMENT_FULL_NAME%3A%22DEPT%20OF%20 DEFENSE%22

[Johnny P]

Have a friend that is retired Border Patrol. He said it gave him great confidence that their sniper rifle's first criteria was that it was the cheapest the department could buy, a Mossberg.

[da gimp]

Glocks are to my knowledge, the only firearm ever made , who's mftr, because they have discovered a fatal flaw in it's design ( have yet to recall & replace an ill designed barrel & chamber) guarantee it to explode when fired with good quality ammo, loaded to original factory specs..........with the result being to ruin beyond repair the pistol & causing great injury & or death to the person firing it & to those people being near it when it exploded...............but other than this minor flaw.........Glock & their supporters say it's good to go........

[Nick Riviezzo]

After three combat tours in Viet Nam,and having to resort to JMBs tool of genius too many times ,the only fatal flaw I noticed with the democratic automatic was being the recipient of all that FMJ love. The much respected Seals[and rightly so] say of the 9mm, "two the heart one to the head,we'll take them alive but we like them dead". I never had to throw that third shot to the head to get the evil forces of NVM to cease and desist their bad behavior. Nick

[Guamsst]

It has been interesting to see how the discussion shifted to cover issues related to Glocks, however, numerous law enforcement and military units worldwide appear content and confident in the model to issue various models of the Glock- including in the USA (such as the FBI among many others including DOD).

The thread got derailed because I put a penny on the tracks..........
1911s are also used by those same listed orgs.....which was the point I tried to make to this goober on facebook. There is no perfect pistol for everyone.

[Guamsst]

..........I never had to throw that third shot to the head to get the evil forces of NVM to cease and desist their bad behavior. Nick

This is what really bugged me about the guy, he kept saying the 1911 was basically useless for self defense. Like it or not, it isn't as if somehow, because it is an old design it becomes less effective. The first club used to kill primitive man is just as deadly today. Might not be as good as a knife, sword or gun, but it will still do the job.

[Ken Hill]

I might have said this already at a different time. When I attended the Glock armorers course I told the instructors that I thought the Glock was the ultimate survival pistol and that it could never be matched by the 1911. They asked "HOW IS THAT?"

My reply was that "you could set it on fire and it would keep your hands warm for three days!"

My Glock 36 has the finger grooves milled off of the front strap and I heavily stippled that area along with both sides of the grip and back strap. I did it with a soldering iron in the same manner Barstow Barrels modify the Glock's that they work on. I believe Barstow was the inspiration for the Gen 4's which have a very moderate stipple by comparison. I have also done this to the Glock 27 in .40 cal which is a nasty little pistol to hold onto right out of the box with +P+ loads.

[Guamsst]

Just realised tonight that the H&K USP has the same "fatal flaw". I think it says allot about the "seriousness" of the flaw that one of the most respected gun manufacturers in the world did not consider it an issue on one of their modern designs.

[bobby L]

Thanks for everyone's input. I learned a lot from everyone's experience and opinons of the 1911 Auto. I had been fairly accurate when firing one in the Army and later in life bought one for home protection and target shooting. While at the range, the slide stop pin did drift out on two occasions and I naively thought it was the gun and not my two handed hold. I therefore bought a replacement slide stop pin and did my "dimpling" of it where it contacted with the plunger pin and that corrected the problem, other than making disassembly a bit more difficult.

After hearing of others experiences and opinons I'm convinced that in the interst of an easy take down for cleaning, that original slide stop pin was left protruding from the frame with no one thinking of two handed holds becoming the preferred way of shooting. A simple adjustment of that pin like I did, knowing that a knife blade would be a necessary tool when cleaning the pistol, is in my book a small price to pay for being able to use a superior way of "point shooting" when sight aiming at a threat or threats isn't practicle. I've yet to practice point shooting using the index finger to point at the target, but one thing i do know just from dry firing using the method. I will have to make sure my hold is firm enough to disengage that grip safety to my satisfaction and I will have to "educate" my middel, now trigger finger, to do more than just say "hi" to my fellow drivers as I make my way to work each day.

[BlitzKrieg]

fatal: leading to failure

Since the design is now north of 100 years old and seems to be stronger than ever, when did it fail?

What we have here is human malfunction alive and well. Training trumps novice nonsense every time.
100 plus years of service and now, we have this nonsense. No.... that dog don't hunt.

[da gimp]

think the kid wants to be recognized for putting forth a solution for a 1911 pistol, & it ended up being much like Jeff Coopers "Scout Rifle"..........another solution in search of a problem to fix...........

[Maury Krupp]

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Field Artillery of the Army of the United States December 31 1917 Volume I, Chapter II Arms, Uniforms, and Equipment, Section 2 The Pistol, Important Point (3):

"The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side or the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slidle stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."

So just pull the d*mn trigger with your forefinger like the Drill Sergeant told you to do and problem solved.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Maury

[Guamsst]

So, as early as 1917 it was identified as operator error....LOL

[bobby L]

Then I guess you would never in any case alter the pin and not be able to point shoot using the index finger to point... because, the pistol would be easier to clean after shooting. Call me crazy.... but I would and did alter it... because it could give me an edge on making sure that I would be the one doing the cleaning.

[jim c 351]

Then I guess you would never in any case alter the pin and not be able to point shoot using the index finger to point... because, the pistol would be easier to clean after shooting. Call me crazy.... but I would and did alter it... because it could give me an edge on making sure that I would be the one doing the cleaning.

Your Crazy. Let us know how you place in your next gunfight.
Jim C

[Guamsst]

Then I guess you would never in any case alter the pin and not be able to point shoot using the index finger to point... because, the pistol would be easier to clean after shooting. Call me crazy.... but I would and did alter it... because it could give me an edge on making sure that I would be the one doing the cleaning.

So, point shooting with your index finger is the only way to accurately and quickly hit your target? ....OK, got it.

[bobby L]

Jim... If I'm still around, you'll be the first to know...if you promised not to tell my wife.

[Ken Hill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2JLdpSb3AY

Sage advice, yet NOTHING is said about any of this fatal flaw stuff!

[Shooter5]

From the Manual for Noncommissioned Officers and Privates of Field Artillery of the Army of the United States December 31 1917 Volume I, Chapter II Arms, Uniforms, and Equipment, Section 2 The Pistol, Important Point (3):

"The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side or the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slidle stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."

So just pull the d*mn trigger with your forefinger like the Drill Sergeant told you to do and problem solved.


There is nothing new under the sun.

Maury

That is very interesting-it certainly indicates the awareness of the potential for a malfunction when firing one-handed as was the technique of the day. With the many possible variations of finger placement in a two-handed hold the probability goes up.
That reminds me of a guy at work still on active duty: on right hand he is missing half his index finger and all of the ring finger and the tip of middle- he doesn't usually use his index finger on the trigger anymore so I wonder if his current method could induce a malfunction...?

[Johnny P]

Gosh, what if you are right handed and left eye dominant? You can't even acquire the sighting finger then, and would have to fall back on using regular old crude sights.

[Shooter5]

A cousin is left handed but right eye dominant (he doesnt shoot handguns) but watching him lean his chin over a rifle stock nearly sideways to shoot is goofy as can be.

[bobby L]

Shooter 5
Probably the funniest and last thing the deer he's aiming at gets a chance to see.

[Guamsst]

I practiced "point shooting" with my index finger last night on the 1911. What a total crap hold. I would be great at shooting the groin area with this hold. Might work with a glock but I can't see how anyone sould see this as a good hold for a 1911.

[jim c 351]

I practiced "point shooting" with my index finger last night on the 1911. What a total crap hold. I would be great at shooting the groin area with this hold. Might work with a glock but I can't see how anyone sould see this as a good hold for a 1911.

Guamsst,
Perhaps you hit on it.
Bobby is a groin shooter.
Jim C

[PhillipM]

I'm glad I'm left eye dominant and left handed for once so I don't even have to think about this issue!

[Guamsst]

I'm glad I'm left eye dominant and left handed for once so I don't even have to think about this issue!

If you are left handed and shoot two handed, actually yes, you do. In my opinion, it is more likely for you since you may get your thumb up there. The question though, is "how likely"?

[Shooter5]

The lefties I've encountered tended not like the 1911 design because it was difficult to draw quickly and disengage the safety when cocked/locked and then acquire target and fire: The issue was the awkwardness of getting at the safety which caused the hand to shift too much and interfered with a firm grasp needed to draw and fire.
They usually would use an M9.

[da gimp]

Used, carried & shot the 1911A1 platform .45ACP as a duty pistol, strong hand (right for me) & weakhand, with a lil practice, I could easily & quickly dis-engage the safety.........it just takes practice.......... one problem we had with 1911A! pistols equipped with ambi-safties, was that most dis-engaged when re-holstering in duty rigs, off duty rigs & shoulder holsters....... a not good thing to happen.

[bobby L]

You got it Jimmy, hit'em where it hurts... not only him but his family as well.

[bobby L]

Guamsst,
Perhaps you hit on it.
Bobby is a groin shooter.
Jim C

you got it Jimmy.... Hit'em where it really hurts!

[VetPsychWars]

Wow, what a weird thread.

The 1917 manual for the Model of 1911 pistol specifically says to pull the trigger with your index finger. Middle finger? I'll show you middle finger!

I am left-eye shooter and right handed. I shoot rifles left-handed because there's no choice, my right eye is nearly useless. I shoot my 1911s right handed; it's no big deal to move the pistol a couple inches to the left.

Anecdote: during self-defense training, I was the only one who actually transferred my pistol to the left hand when I had to shoot to the left of my defensive position.

How could you not?! But... no other student did.

Tom

[Guamsst]

This thread isn't weird, the fact that it survived to 8 pages is whats weird....LOL

[Johnny P]

Now I am really concerned that my 1911 and 1911A1 pistols may have little value due to the "fatal flaw". Wish someone had told me about that 35 years ago.

[Michael Tompkins]

Hi all,

I was somewhat surprised to read about the controversy caused by using the the second finger to pull the trigger while using the index to quickly line up the muzzle of the pistol to the target. I was a 2nd lt. in the army and never was taught that method of firing the 45. At least I can't recall it and I know I never read the manual, warning of it's use.

As an MP during the time when the 1911A1 was still in service, it was our primary side-arm. I don't recall that method being taught during Basic/AIT, qualification or re-familiarization. I loved our 1911A1. Still remember my serial no. It was a Colt, serial number 1626057. Wonder where it is today?

[Dave Waits]

I really tried to ignore this after my initial post but, it won't go away. So, here's a true left-handers take. Aside from the guy being a small-minded Mall ninja nobody in their right mind would shoot a 1911 as he describes. Oh, as an aside, my wife stated that that was probably the only thing he could find to use that middle finger on but, I digress. I use a high-grip, thumbs forward grip and yes, I did indeed, pop the slide-stop once with my right thumb. That was two years ago and I found the cure rather quickly. Haven't had that problem since. Yes, I shortened the pin and countersunk as you can see in the pic. I have no trouble disassembling the gun and the pin is out of the way when I grip the gun.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii180/retmsgt123/IMG_0580.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/retmsgt123/media/IMG_0580.jpg.html)

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii180/retmsgt123/IMG_0295.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/retmsgt123/media/IMG_0295.jpg.html)

[Ken Hill]

What a thread! To add some more things to consider was Browning's, (being the genius of his day) possible deliberate attempt to place a pin that in some cases can partially block the beam of a Crimson Trace type laser grip that was surely to be invented within the life cycle of his design.

Other than that life is good and my 1911's shoot just fine ... flawed or not!

[bobby L]

I agree Ken what a thread! I didn't realize how strong a response it would elicit. I'm glad however I posted it because it gave others a chance to talk about the slide pin moving out on them like it did on me. As I mentioned not knowing if was me or the gun, I fixed my problem by very slightly dimpling the slide pin surface where it contacts the spring tentioned plunger and I've never had the problem with it since. But then again, i've never used that method of shooting since either. One thing's for sure anyway, the 1911 is still the best pistol that was ever made in my and most of the gun world's opinion. I've owned John Browning's "refinement" 'Hi-Power' and found it to be a very good pistol, but I still like his 1911 better.

As to whether the index finger pointing method of point shooting is of any value, I guess it depends on the individual. I know I would never use it on my 1911 because my hands are not large enough for me to feel comfortable with the recoil. I will try using it with my CZ82 or some other pistols I have. My thought is that just because a method is new, it doesn't mean it's automatically good....or bad...just because it wasn't thought of a hundred years before.

[joem]

If it's one of the heavy magnums (.460 or .480), you woun't have to worry about the tip of your finger cause it'll be gone.

[bobby L]

nah, Joem it would only be with one of my small frame automatics, which would be the likely carry gun anyway.

[Guamsst]

ROFLMAO.......Congratulations Dave Waits you save me some typing time.

I was playing with a compact 1911 tonight and cupped it right handed and my finger was barely resting on the pin. I then realised a lefty using a similar but opposite grip could do exactly what you described. Ofcourse, it also was uncomfortable and I would have changed my grip anyways, but the fact is, this is the only reasonable grip I can see that may cause the problem.