455 Webley MkVI reloading

[rayg]

I just picked up a Webley 455 MkVI revolver that I'm looking for cases, dies, and bullets or a mould. Used items would be fine as I' not planning on shooting it alot.
I'm wondering if you can use Long Colt dies for sizing the 455 cases as I have those dies, If so I wouldn't have to buy dies then. Thanks, Ray

[mhb]

whether your revolver has had the cylinder 'shaved' for use with .45 Auto ammo in clips. Many of these revolvers in the U.S. have been altered that way: mine has been, and I use .45 AutoRim brass in it, sized and loaded with standard .45 Auto dies. It is certainly possible that the .45 Colt dies would work: the sizer should, anyway, though the expander and seater may be too long to work properly with the shorter .455 or .45 Auto/AR brass. In either case, you would need a correct shell holder for the .455 or .45 AR brass.
Also, FWIW, those MK VI revolvers I've measured all have chamber mouths running .450" to .451" in diameter, and groove diameters not over .453" - I use 255 gr. moly-coated hard cast bullets of .452" diameter (from Bear Creek Supply) in the .45AR cases, loaded to 600 FPS, which about duplicates the original British military load, and shoots extremely well. It is not necessary to hunt for larger diameter bullets (.455" - .456"), since they will be squeezed-down more than necessary and will shoot no better, if as well, as the .452" ones. You should not load to full .45 Auto pressures or velocities - such loads are harder on the revolver, and the original type is more pleasant to shoot, as well as being effective and accurate. Neither should you shoot jacketed bullets, which are hard on the barrel and unnecessary as well as more expensive.
mhb - Mike

[rayg]

Thanks Mike, sorry forgot to mention it's original .455 and hasn't been shaved. I checked and the shell holder is the same as the .303 british case and I have one.
I checked and I see that Western bullet Co has cast hollow base bullets for the Webley, that's what they original shot so the cylinder dia bumps up to the bore dia. See here. http://www.westernbullet.com/ra45255grhb.html They would probably work well in the 45acp ones also in doing that.
Another question I have, would the 45 auto rimed cases work in the .455 in lieu of original 455 cases in case I can't find 455 cases as I checked and some companies are out of the 455 cases? Ray

[mhb]

Unfortunately, the .45 AR case rim is MUCH thicker than the .455 rim, and so the AR case will not work in the unaltered Webley - the rims could probably be lathe-turned thinner, but that would require a lathe and a great deal of work.
I was aware that original style bullets and molds are available for the Webley, but have found that the available .452" bullets shoot at least as well and are cheaper. I don't know what the British were thinking when they designed the revolver with a chamber mouth diameter so much smaller than the bullet, and a groove diameter larger than the bullet after passing through the chamber mouth and being drastically reduced in diameter. Even if the soft lead hollowbase bullet would squash down and then expand again to fit the contortions, why bother?
And, as I said, the hard cast moly-coated bullets shoot very well, indeed, and do not lead the bore at all.
I prefer to do things the easy way whenever possible, and in this case, the results are as good as can be obtained from the revolver, without the extra trouble and expense.
Good luck!
mhb - Mike

[BruceHMX]

I get my bullets from BIll Benny bill10@verizon.net He has the 250gr Navy Wad cutter and the traditional 260 round nose. Both are sized 454dia. He is very reasonable, ships fast.

Pic of Navy Wadcutter
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/BruceHMX/WebleyNavyReload.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/BruceHMX/Manstopper.jpg

I load 5gr's Unique in more modern Webleys, S&W's and Colt's. 4gr's Unique in Older guns.

[rayg]

Bruce what does he charge per 100, Ray

[BruceHMX]

Ray I don't remember but it is very reasonable. He's a really nice guy, excellent caster. Shoot him some mail.

[rayg]

Bruce checked with him and they are only 16.50 with shipping. You mentioned they are sized .454 dia. Do you have a problem with them being too large for the chambers and the case dia. I think, but of course I might be wrong, but the original bullet was .452 as that is what the chambers are. Ray

[rayg]

He wrote back and stated they are sized at .455. I believe the original bullets were sized at .452 as that is what the dia of the cylinder is supposed to be and then they bump up to .455 in the bore because of the hollow base, Ray

[BruceHMX]

Mine shoot great in 4 different 455's. He's good people to deal with.

[rayg]

I probably would shoot the gun less then 50 times if that. I checked and the Lee dies run about $41.00 with postage and cases about $1.00 ea. Plus bullets @ about $17 per hundred plus postage. A considerable sum just to shoot it a few times.
I read a post were someone suggested triming the width of the rims and cutting down the 45 Long Colt cases to the 455 case dimensions so I could make up a few cases that way and they stated further that you can make your own hollow based bullets by drilling out the base of the 45 LC cast bullet which if I recall my mould is .452 which is the right dia for the throat and bumps up to .455 bore with the hollow based bullets.
As I'm away from my reloading equipment for the moment and can't measure the case OD dia of the LC cases but I measured my revolvers chambers and they are .583 dia measured from the back, can't measure the fronts with my calipers. Can someone advise what the LC case OD diameters are and if they would fit my chambers? Also as suggested if I have to use the 45 acp case to crimp because the longer LC die won't work for that, maybe I should just buy the 45acp dies for sizing also. Would they work for 455 case sizing. Can someone provide the 455 and 45 acp case lengths to compare the two?
Ray

[GillaFunk]

I'm in a similar situation. I've got a MK 6, it's been shaved for moon clips.

I tried ordering .455 bullets from Western bullet, but they have been out of stock for weeks and they don't know when they will have what I need.

Based on my research, I'll be using .45ACP brass, Missouri bullet co. 255g .452 dia SWC soft lead bullets with a light load of bullseye powder to get up to the 6-700 fps needed for the cartrige.

my question is; What kind of COAL should I be using? I would assume, that by seating enough to provide the same powder space within the case as a proper .455 load, that would be a good place to start? or, better yet, the 230g 45ACP bullet I use is roughly the same dimensions as my .452. can I just load to that same COAL as I know that is a safe load for my 1911.

[Nate]

Why not use 45 Auto Rim cases? No need for half moons.

[GillaFunk]

If I can use brass I already have, and buy a 10 pack of moon clips....to me its a no-brainer. not to mention easier to load/unload with moon clips as a type of speedloader.

and the cylinder was trimmed to employ moon's anyways.

[rayg]

Well I just got through firing my Webley. As I mentioned I probably wouldn't fire it much and didn't want to spend a lot of money to do it. So I made cases using the 45 long Colt cases and 255 gr Colt cast bullets I had. In mikeing the Colt rims they were at .050 and I only needed to reduce them to .045, (.005), to fuction/turn in the cylinder. Having no machinery I cut the cases down to the correct length with a hack saw and trued the cut up. Then I reduced the thickness of the rim on the primer side with emery paper on a flat surface holding the case rim side down. The primers still were deep enough below the surface of the reduced thickness of the rim.
Then using the Long colt dies and the 255 gr, .452 dia bullets, I loaded them using 4 grs of Unigue and fired them and they shot well and were very accurate. However the trigger pull was terrible but dispite that I got a real good goup at 15 yrds.
I probably won't be shooting it much more it was just a challege to make the rounds, Ray

[rayg]

Forgot to post the target here it is.
Here are the six shots I fired from the bench with a hand support at 14 yds. Don't know why the two high ones but I did find in checking some of my 255 bullets afterward that some bullets were harder then others. I had made those bullets years ago and must have gotten some mixed up. (I haven't shot my old original 1884 dated 1873 Colt for years), or else I pulled the shots as the trigger pull on my Welbey is Terrible, extremely heavy and crippy. Almost takes two fingers. Anyway even the two high ones grouped well.

Next time I load I will check the hardness of each bullet. I read you can also drill out a cavity in the base of the 255 gr bullets to help expansion but doubt I need to do that the way it's shooting now.

[rayg]

Well I had some 45 acp "rimmed" cases that I had my friend cut the rims down to .040 thickness so they would work in the 455 uncut Webley. I tried them and they turn without draging. I'll load them up w/ 4 grs of Unique powder and will try them at the range next week, Ray

[rayg]

Went to the range last week and tried the converted 45acp rimmed cases out at 15yrds. The shots were scattered with flyers on the target and not grouping well and there was some un-burnt power in the barrel and cylinder. This told me the powder was not burning proper probably because of the longer cases. So I tilted the gun up before each shot to make sure the powder was against the primer and that did it. It shot nice groups from then on.

[GillaFunk]

I loaded up some .45acp brass with Missouri bullet co. 255g .452 dia SWC, using 45 Colt dies and Bullseye in various charges to get the accuracy and POA Id like. I dont recall the charge weights off hand, but the most accurate was ~660fps.

I got nothing close to what RayG has, accuracy wise. Still not happy with performance, and I may just locate some .45 Colt brass and go from there.

The fun continues.

[rayg]

Keep working at it. Remember you have to either cut the
45 Colt LC or rimmed acp cases down quite a bit, or you have to tilt the gun up each time to move the powder against the primer to get better burn and accuracy, Ray

[wiley]

Remington makes a knurled and swaged lead bullet with a .454" diameter. Also the base is slightly cupped. You might try these for a better seal. I got mine at Midway

[GillaFunk]

Finally found a load I can work with, and am happy to report:

standard non-modified 45ACP brass, normally FL sized, primed CCI LP, fired using moon clips.
Magtech Bullets 45 Colt (Long Colt) (454 Diameter) 250 Grain Lead Flat Nose (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1657318278/magtech-bullets-45-colt-long-colt-454-diameter-250-grain-lead-flat-nose) $19.79/100
Bullseye 4.4g
COAL 1.290",
crimped with Lee carbide factory 45ACP crimp
7 yards

http://gillafunk.smugmug.com/Weapons/Webley-Mk-VI/i-PR3r5GH/1/M/Webley1-M.jpg
FPS unknown (sorry, no chrono on hand)

Hole in the 10ring was my fault. Not sure about the flyer, probably me as well.
This is the same load (less the projectile) I used from my last test, that resulted in

However,
Same load data, just 3.8g Bullseye
http://gillafunk.smugmug.com/Weapons/Webley-Mk-VI/i-xVMR6qz/0/M/Webley2-M.jpg

Needless to say, pretty god dammed good for a 96 year old gun!

Ray, I appreciate your input. Your post basically got me started in loading for this monster.

[rayg]

Glad it worked out GF, nice group. Always great when your loads work out, Ray

[rayg]

I haven't shot my Webley for awhile but I mentioned to my friend who had machined/thinned down the rims from .080 to .040 of the 45 acp rimmed cases so they would turn in the cylinder, that the cases are too long. And it's necessary to tilt the gun up each shot so the powder positions back by the primer otherwise the powder doesn't burn completey which results in poor accuracy and really is not a good thing to do anyway. So he said to bring the cases over and he'll cut the length down on them.
Here's the result. The cases now measure .790 instead of .940.
I loaded 30 of them up with some .452, 45 cal. semi wad cutter, .230 gr cast bullets I had with 4.5 grs of Unique powder. A bit more powder then the 4.0 grs I used in the heaver 255gr LC bullets I used before. I can't wait to try them out but it's raining here today so I'll just have to wait a bit.
Here's the cases for comparison. Ray

[Parashooter]

Be careful, there. With the shortened cases and bullets perhaps seated deeper than is normal for the .455, you've seriously reduced the initial effective case volume. This can really raise pressure, especially with the charge increase you report. Here's a QuickLOAD simulation to consider -

Cartridge : .455 MK II
Bullet : .452, 234, RCBS FN GC 45-250-FN
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.160 inch or 29.46 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant UNIQUE

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 3.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-03.0 71 3.88 676 237 10723 1670 83.2 0.933
+00.0 73 4.00 694 251 11423 1741 84.6 0.907 ! Near Maximum !
+03.0 75 4.12 713 264 12156 1812 85.8 0.881 ! Near Maximum !
+06.0 77 4.24 731 278 12923 1882 87.0 0.856 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+09.0 79 4.36 749 292 13724 1951 88.2 0.832 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+12.0 81 4.48 768 306 14560 2020 89.2 0.808 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+15.0 84 4.60 785 321 15433 2087 90.3 0.786 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

If your load generates the 14,560 psi estimated here for 4.48gr., it's pushing the envelope for the old .455, rated for just 13,053 psi working maximum (PMAX) by the CIP. See http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page87.pdf#page=1

[rayg]

Well never one to ignore good advice, I pulled the bullets and reduced the load to 4.0 grs and seated the bullet a bit further out. The cut down cases are the same size/length as the original 455 cases and the bullets are 200 gr, not .230 gr that I mistakenly said, sorry but they sure are peek squeak loads now.. I checked the books for the standard unique loads for the regular 45acp reloads loads that are used with the clips in the shaved cylinder Webleys by some and they start at 5.0 grs up to 7.0 plus and I don't know what the pressure the GI 45 acp rds. has. I do remember reading of some damge caused by the regular 45acp ammo. Ray

[Parashooter]

. . . I don't know what the pressure the GI 45 acp rds. has. I do remember reading of some damge caused by the regular 45acp ammo. Ray

CIP Pmax for .45 ACP is 18,855 psi. - quite a bit higher than that for the .455. See detail at http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page76.pdf . SAAMI .45 ACP MAP (piezo) is 21,000 psi - which shows how much variation there is in the measurement methods of the different standards organizations. Apples and oranges.

[rayg]

Well the rain stopped and got a chance to get to the range before it started again and here's the result. Fired 10 rds at 15yrds with my Hand holding the revolver while resting on a sand bag. Again they are not very powerful loads as my point of aim was on the center of the top bulls eye but impact was on the lower target. That's about 6-7 inches below point of aim and at only 15yrds. Could be the 200 gr. bullets added to the low impact as I think it is said lighter bullets shoot lower but for that short distance I wouldn't think it would make that much difference. I will try the 255gr LC bullets next, Ray

[GillaFunk]

Have you tried the Magtech Bullets 45 Colt (Long Colt) (454 Diameter) 250 Grain Lead Flat Nose from midway?