1901 rear sight peep size?

[Fred]

Does anyone know what size., in hundredths of an inch, is the peep sight on the 1901 sight? Thanks

[mhb]

the original aperture was .046" (#56 drill), and with the third type sight, was increased to .070" (#50 drill) - which would have been a real improvement, in my opinion.
mhb - Mike

[Fred]

Thanks!

[mhb]

In fact, I was shooting my Krag (with 1901 rear sight) today - won the match with it!
Actually, I have opened the aperture on mine to .100", which works better with my aging eyes. I wouldn't make it larger than the original unless I had spare slide inserts for the sights, so it can be restored to 'as issued' condition.
P.S.:
The P.J. O'Hare sight micrometer for the 1903 (or the new Ray-Vin reproduction) works just fine on the 1901 Krag sight, and makes accurate elevation adjustments for target shooting MUCH easier and more certain.
mhb - Mike

[Mark Daiute]

In fact, I was shooting my Krag (with 1901 rear sight) today - won the match with it!
Actually, I have opened the aperture on mine to .100", which works better with my aging eyes. I wouldn't make it larger than the original unless I had spare slide inserts for the sights, so it can be restored to 'as issued' condition.
P.S.:
The P.J. O'Hare sight micrometer for the 1903 (or the new Ray-Vin reproduction) works just fine on the 1901 Krag sight, and makes accurate elevation adjustments for target shooting MUCH easier and more certain.
mhb - Mike

where can we find said sight micrometer and how much will it cost?

[madsenshooter]

http://www.sbsdistributing.com/index.php?pr=Sight_Tools You have to let them know you want it for a Krag Mark, there's a difference in the width of the feet, or at least there used to be when Ray-Vin was making them. That fellow retired. Only 129.95! CMP rules allowed one to enlarge the aperture to .100", but in looking at the latest rulebook, there doesn't appear to any mention of the old rule, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

[Fred]

All of the rear sights designed by Buffington were the best, weren't they? Maybe not for combat in all cases, but they're certainly the most precise!

[mhb]

that Ray-Vin made a sight micrometer specifically for the Krag (which does have a narrower sight staff), but find the 1903 type works on the 1901 sight very well, though the Krag version may well be calibrated for the longer sight radius of the Krag. Still, I find that the 1903 version works well enough for all my needs, and saves me the requirement of buying yet another sight micrometer.
I don't know about the CMP standards for the Krag sight, since I haven't been using one in any of their sanctioned matches. It would be reasonable to permit enlarging the aperture to suit the shooter, since doing so doesn't make the rifle shoot any better, only easier for the shooter to use effectively.
mhb - Mike

[mhb]

Another thing I didn't know was that Buffington had any particular hand in design of sights for rifles later than the Trapdoor.
Of the pre-WW2 U.S. service rifle sights (other than the Model 1917), my favorite is actually the 1901 - not because it is more accurate than, say, the 1905, which it resembles functionally, but because it does have a reasonably effective windage adjustment WHICH CAN BE LOCKED IN PLACE after adjustment. The 1905 windage adjustment is no more precise, but much more prone to slop, slack, and unwanted movement.
mhb - Mike


All of the rear sights designed by Buffington were the best, weren't they? Maybe not for combat in all cases, but they're certainly the most precise!

[Parashooter]

New rulebook for 2013 - http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/CMPGamesRules.pdf

4.1.1 General As-Issued Military Rifle Requirements
The following rules apply to all as-issued U. S. and foreign military rifles unless specific exceptions are noted in these Rules:
. . .
• Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular military personnel, except that the internal diameter of rear apertures may be modified. Adjustable apertures, interchangeable inserts and lens inserts of any type are prohibited. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or competition are not permitted.

There's also an interesting addition to the "Other As-Issued U.S. Military Rifles" category -

4.1.4 Other As-Issued U.S. Military Rifles
The rifle must be a manually operated rifle that was issued by the U.S. Armed
Forces and be in as-issued condition. Permitted rifles are the Caliber .30
U. S. Model 1917 and the Caliber .30-40 U. S. Krag. Other U. S. military rifles
such as the Caliber .30-40 M1895 (lever action) and 6mm caliber M1895 Lee Navy rifle may be used.

[madsenshooter]

I was considering one at one time, emailed the old Ray-Vin and he told me they made them with Krag width feet. I don't think there was any difference in the body between the two. I posted a pic somewhere here of Camp Perry Krag shooters in the early 1900s. One can see what was probably O'Hare micrometers sticking up on their 1901 sights. Changed computers since then, so I no longer have it.

Thanks parashooter, they were more specific a couple years ago. Hmm, working a lever action from the prone position ought to be interesting. After thinking about it, I guess one wouldn't have to break their position anymore than you would to work a bolt.

[Mark Daiute]

Most excelent thread. Thanks for all the info

[Fred]

Another thing I didn't know was that Buffington had any particular hand in design of sights for rifles later than the Trapdoor.
Of the pre-WW2 U.S. service rifle sights (other than the Model 1917), my favorite is actually the 1901 - not because it is more accurate than, say, the 1905, which it resembles functionally, but because it does have a reasonably effective windage adjustment WHICH CAN BE LOCKED IN PLACE after adjustment. The 1905 windage adjustment is no more precise, but much more prone to slop, slack, and unwanted movement.
mhb - Mike

I'm pretty sure that Buffington also designed the 1901 sight used on the Krag and the 1905 sight as used on the 1903. I'll look for the book I remember reading it in.

[Parashooter]

. . . they were more specific a couple years ago. . .

The general rear-aperture verbiage for all "as-issued" military rifles was added this year. The same section from the 2011 rulebook reads simply -

"Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular military personnel. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or competition are not permitted."

Perhaps you are remembering the sight rules specific to the U.S. Krag. In 2011 this read -

6.3.4 Other As-Issued U. S. Military Rifles
The rifle must be a manually operated rifle that was issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and be in as-issued condition. Permitted rifles are the Caliber .30 U. S. Model 1917 and U. S. Krag.
. . .
(3) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular military personnel, except that as-issued aperture rear sights on U. S. Krag rifles may be enlarged to a maximum of 0.100” and the front sight may be retrofitted with a blade with the same profile as the as-issued sight that is not wider than 0.100”.

In the latest 2013 rulebook, the analogous section 4.1.4 reads -

• Sights must be of the same types that were on rifles issued to regular military personnel, except that the front sight may be retrofitted with a blade with the same profile as the as-issued sight that is not wider than 0.100”.

[madsenshooter]

Thanks parashooter, I knew I wasn't imagining the old rule. With my tiny pupils, .100" is still marginal, just not enough light through the tunnel, so I use the 1902 sight without the peep.

[psteinmayer]

I might do the same this year Bob... I do alright with the 1902 peep... but in Rapid Fire, it's just to small for me to acquire the target quickly after each shot. I've been using the sight without the peep for so long, I think I'll do better that way (especially after doing so poorly last year).

[Kragrifle]

The 1901 Krag sight also had an enlargement of the "V" part of the sight, making it larger when the peep was increased in size.

[madsenshooter]

You mean when the aperture was increased from .046" to .070", by the armory? I hadn't noticed that, thanks, will take a look see.

[Bob S]

I didn't realize that Ray made a "special Krag" version of the sight mike. I have always used my old original O'Hare on the Krag M1901 sight with no problems. My original O'Hare gives one minute clicks on the '03; Ray's repro gives 1/2 minute. I never sat down with a tape, vernier and calculator to figure what the value of the clicks would be on a 30" Krag barrel ... depends on the difference in sight radius. Now I have a new "mission" .....

You can also make these work on the Agentine M1879 rolling block rear sight and even the "original" Buffington sight on the trapdoor, with a little finagling.

Resp'y,
Bob S.