Remember that Serial No 44 Krag?

[Fred]

Remember that nice early Krag that a guy posted pictures of on this forum several months ago with the serial number of 44? You all probably know that it's been for sale on Guns International for $9,975.00 . I've never heard what the final opinion of it was from everybody here. I recall that it might've had the rear sight or hand guard replaced. I can't remember for sure. What's everyone's opinion of the brass tipped cleaning rod? Bill Mook told me several times that he was certain that none of those rods actually made it out of the Armory on a rifle. So what do you guys think? Is it worth the money being asked for it? Just wondering.

[Fred]

OK, I went back and read all of the posts about this rifle from long ago. There does indeed seem to be expert opinions that the rifle has been definitely worked on. Meaning had an early solid hand guard put on it and a too fresh cartouche stamped on the left side, etc. etc. Definitely not worth the $9,975.00 asked for it. Apparently it's been making its rounds from one auction forum to the next and there aren't any takers. THat's good enough for me. The brass rod tip looks to definitely be from an argentine Mauser anyway. Too many serrations.

[Kragrifle]

Does anyone have a real Krag brass tip rod to compare to the Argentine variation.

[Fred]

I saw one that was made according to original blueprints. The serations were definitely fewer and deeper on that one. It was on Bill Mook's serial No. 292 that he'd just bought from a guy that I'd known very well for over twenty years.

[Kragrifle]

Never got the chance to visit with Bill at his home, though I was able to acquire a few of his rifles after he died. I have never had the chance to examine an original brass tip rod, and wonder if they ever existed.

[Fred]

Me too. I can't say that I've ever heard Bill say he'd seen one. The rod on the rifle that he bought was pretty good and was made by a machinist at TWA from the blueprints in one of the Krag books. It's possible that Bill drew up the blue print or schematic drawing of it for the book. Bill was quite a draftsman. Anyway, when shown the rifle by the owner, Bill was told that it was all original and that the rod had been on it since the guy had received it from his father. He hadn't of course. It'd had the receiver changed from #3766 to #292. The rifle's owner bought it originally from Peter Cardone out of New York. Not sure how to spell his name. Anyway, rifle #3766 became #292. I'd originally found the #292 receiver on a sporter that still had it's original unaltered bolt, extracter, etc. I traded the receiver to the owner of the rifle who later had it switched with #3766. Bill thought that the rifle was original because he trusted the seller who he'd known for years and the rod was exactly like the specifications in the drawing which is what the machinist used to create the rod. Bill still had his doubts though that the rods had been issued with the rifle's as he still maintained that none had ever actually been issued with the brass tips. Anyway, When Bill called me up to tell me that he'd bought it from the guy we both knew, I was very surprised. I didn't want Bill to be slicked and so I told him the true story of how it actually got to be like it was. I told him that I wished he'd told me what he was thinking of doing. Heck, the rifle had originally had a double strap front band when Bill first saw it. He later traded an original solid front band to the owner that he'd had in his collection of parts, knowing that it'd be put on that same rifle. I found out what he'd paid for it later when the former owner told me he'd sold it to Bill. Bill was disappointed in the rifle's rod not being original, but I think that he felt especially surprised that the guy he knew as a good friend had slicked him. However Bill didn't pay too terribly much for it then and so he figured that he'd just keep it in his collection as a representative very early rifle. Bill had to get off of the telephone quickly then because his diuretic medication was kicking in and he had to go pee really bad. That's the last time I talked to Bill. Where the rifle is now I don't know. However I think that the Krag collecting fraternity should know that it's not original or legit. I'd never been to Bill's either and I only know about his collection from a mutual friend who'd been there several times. Bill had come out to my home town though every year for some time to the annual big antique gun show and he brought Sandy (General) Vandenberg with him. Those days at the show were fun for me because they set up with me behind my table. Bill would bring something from his collection for show and tell every year. His death really surprised me as it did everyone. I wanted to go to his funeral, but that was when the big snow storm hit and I couldn't travel. I sure miss him and the General too.

[Kragrifle]

There were several rifles that Bill and Tom worked on. One of the rifles sold at auction several years ago for a large price tag. I cannot remember the SN, but it may have been 292. The rifles I know about ended up being good pieces, though admittedly not "as produced". I also had many conversations will Bill by phone. Always the same-he would call out of the blue. Since I always enjoyed the calls and learned a lot, I would talk as long as he could go. Calls would always end with a mildly frantic "I gotta go". The diuretic explains it! Bill asked me for years to go to the Colorado Springs show and I always had family commintments. When I finally had an open year and called Bill, he told me it would not be a good time since he had to work at the show. Sadly, that was his last show and I never did make it to Colorado. I was out of the country when he died my recollection is that the funeral was a family affair only. The tragic part of all this is that Bill kept meticulous notes on the Krags, especially the 1892 models. All that data now sits unpublished and will likely be lost forever. With the country as screwed up as it is , this may not be that big a deal, but if you love Krags you hate to see all that work and information never see the light of day.

[Fred]

Yes, Bill had a little note book that he always carried around in his shirt pocket that contained constantly updated notes on his Krag research. I wonder what happened to it? Bill gave me a photo copy of a larger book that he'd put together with his hand drawn schematics of every Krag part from every Krag model. I mean showing the detailed measurements of everything from the thread pitch of every screw, screw head contour, dimension's of parts, all of the tiny and unnoticed (except by Bill) evolutions and changes in parts that occurred during production etc. I still have my copy somewhere. Bill titled it "Krag Crap".
That's interesting about Number 292 possibly being sold for a lot of money. Bill paid $5,000.00 for it. I'd heard shortly afterwards from the seller who sold it to him that Bill had called him that week to just talk about something as he usually did every week or so. The guy wasn't home yet but his wife answered and talked with Bill for a spell. She happened to mention the price that Bill had paid for the rifle and Bill got really angry. He hadn't wanted anyone to know what he'd paid for it. Well the wife sure wasn't going to go around telling anyone because she didn't know any of the Krag collectors, but just the same, Bill was pretty angry over the information getting out. While speaking to Bill, I never let on that I also knew what he'd paid for the rifle. No sense in throwing gas on the fire. I've mentioned, via email, that particular rifle, Serial No. 292, and how it came to be to some guys while trying to locate it. However I've never received any comment back. It's as though nobody wants to talk about it because somebody possibly and probably bought it for an original and they didn't want the truth about it to become general knowledge or that the buyer got slicked and might demand his money back. Anyway, I see no reason to allow it to be presented as an absolute original specimen when it simply isn't. The reason being in my mind that if indeed other such early rifles with brass head rods surface, Serial Number 292 should not be used as a legitimate litmus test to determine if others are correct. It'll direct research down the wrong path.

[Dick Hosmer]

Fascinating - thanks for sharing! Bill used to call me exactly the same way, and we'd just talk and talk. And, I'm another one who put off a visit - sad - I really miss him.

[Fred]

Bill gave me a newly made copy of an original vintage model of scope mount that fits in place of a Krag rear sight. One has to remove the hand guard of course, but it enables the use of one of those vintage thin Winchester scopes and looks really neat.

[Rick the Librarian]

Fascinating - thanks for sharing! Bill used to call me exactly the same way, and we'd just talk and talk. And, I'm another one who put off a visit - sad - I really miss him.

...as did I - I very personable gentleman, in every sense of the word. He also sent me some detailed information he had on Philippine Constabulary rifles and, when he heard I was restoring an 1898 Krag, he sent me a complete upper band (with stacking swivel and upper band screw) free of charge.

[Kragrifle]

Funny you should mention the price of a rifle. At what I believe was the last Baltimore show Bill went to I watched him pay a guy $2300 for a horribly cut down sporterized Krag rifle! Bill was convinced all the parts had been original before the alterations and he was interested in the relief cut out around the trigger/sear pin for the particular serial number. I asked him what in the world he was doing, but his mind was made up. That particular feature was something he was studying and he had to have that rifle!
BTW, I would really appreciate having a copy of your copy of that Krag Crap book. I believe I know where that original little black book is, but sadly it likely will never see the light of day.

[Dick Hosmer]

Needless to say, so would I. Approximately how many pages, and of what size, are involved? If a lot, commercial photocopying could get out of hand. Scan 'em once and then they could be easily distributed for a nominal fee.

[Fred]

I'll find the book. I saw it just three years ago and so I know that it's here. Probably in the back room in a box.

[sdkrag]

If copies of Bill's book become available I would also love to have a copy. Last time I saw Bill I was picking up my 92 rifle and some parts. There was a barrelled receiver that was cut down and tapped. I told Bill that it wasn"t mine. He told me that he wouldn't have a piece of junk like that and I should take it along. It is now part of a sporter one of my sons owns and has been used to harvest SD deer. (I had enough parts for one but Bill's receiver gave us enough parts for both boys). I only knew him for a few years but he provided me with lots of stories and memories.

[Fred]

OK, three "Krag Crap"s to go! I'll start looking for it today. ;)

[Rick the Librarian]

Make that four - let me know if there is any copying fees or mailing charges to reimburse you.

[Fred]

Four it is and no, there won't be any fees for a copy for each of you guys. I'll put them in a binder/cover too like Bill did for me. I'll let you know when I've found the book and run the copy's and then you guys can PM me your addresses. I have yours around here somewhere Rick but Please send it to me again when I'm ready to send them because "somewhere" means lost with me.

[sdkrag]

Thank you very much. Bill influenced us in a good way.

[jon_norstog]

I'm sorry I missed the guy. Sounds like he was a real mensch.

jn

[sdkrag]

He was a rare one. Paid my sons a BIG complement first time we visited. After about a half hour of looking and visiting he told the boys to go ahead and pick up anything they wanted to look at. He said "alot of people don't even know how to spell guns, but you boys are welcome to look at anything". I was pretty dang proud of my sons.