Trapdoor mystery

[Viking Guy]

Gents, I have a few questions I'm hoping you guys can help me out with.

My son's friend brought over a Trapdoor rifle for me to look at. As often happens, he thought it was a Civil War gun used by his great grandfather. We know that's not so. However there are some oddities I'm hoping you all can help me solve.

The breechblock is marked model of 1873 or appears to be. There is some old rust/pitting and the final digit could be an 8 though I've not seen that in my limited Trapdoor experience. The firing pin is frozen in the extended position. I intend to start soaking it in Kroil or another penetrating oil.

The rifle has no serial number. Where it should be there is again evidence of rust/corrosion/pitting put it does not appear to be so great as to obscure the entire s/n. There are simply no numbers there at all! The barrel has the standard "VP" marking forward of the breech. The rifle is configured with the Buffington sight. The buttplate is stamped U.S. The cleaning rod is missing. Bore is cruddy but may clean up.

The stock has no cartouche/date whatsoever but has the look and patina of an original stock. It does not appear to have ever been sanded. I'm assuming this is a very old period replacement stock though it certainly looks original to the rifle. If I were to compare this rifle to my Trapdoor with an 1886 cartouche, it would appear to be essentially the same rifle.

So, what have we got? Just an old Trapdoor that fell on hard times in its history due to neglect (rust/pitting, etc) or an Antiques Roadshow one of a kind showpiece (just kidding, of course).

TIA,
VG

[Dick Hosmer]

Can you post photos? I'm guessing the numbers, which are sometimes faint, actually are there.

[Viking Guy]

I'll try to post photos

Thank you

[Viking Guy]

We'll see if this works. It's to the Jouster albums

http://www.jouster.com/forums/album.php

[Viking Guy]

Second try

http://www.jouster.com/forums/album.php?albumid=283

[ebeeby]

This rifle doesn't have any checkering or engraving does it??

[Dick Hosmer]

Probably not, since he said it looks just like his 1886-dated rifle.

[ebeeby]

Probably not, since he said it looks just like his 1886-dated rifle.

Just making sure and you know why... :)

[Viking Guy]

No, there is no checkering or engraving. Just a rifle that has not been properly cared for over time. Could you tell me what you mean by "checkering and engraving"? I'm assuming you mean a rifle altered by some person at a later dated. This rifle has none of that, just hoping to piece together some dates and a little history for a novice interested in a rifle that has been in his family for many years. He's a young man and has limited exposure to firearms of any kind, let alone historic/classic arms. I think it's refreshing to find young folks interested in this stuff and I'm trying to help.

[Dick Hosmer]

The reference was to an 1875 Officer's Rifle (which it clearly isn't) which was embellished at Springfield for sale to parties wishing for a fancy gun to hunt with. Original cost was $36 (later lowered to $27) which was a considerable sum in those days. Only 477 were made and they bring 5-figure prices today. Their receivers were not numbered. One other possibility for yours - until I saw the pics - was incorporation of a Model 1870 receiver by Bubba, but it isn't that either. Apparently the numbers have been removed or have simply worn off. Good quality close-ups might reveal the answer, as it never would have passed inspection without them. I re-read your original post - you were very clear, and obviously have covered some of the basic possibilities. It could be that the number was removed to cover a theft, eons ago. Really hard to tell without seeing it, but we're 3000 miles apart. I do know an old collector in Clearwater, however.

[Viking Guy]

Thank you all so much for the replies. I'm now out of the US but will be back in a week or so. At that time. I'll post some much better quality photos (using my wife's camera) and maybe we'll be able to nail ths thing down. Again, thanks for your efforts so far.

VG

[Viking Guy]

Well, I'm back and I hope these photos are better. This rifle came to me with the Buffington sight (minus the forward screw) in a baggie. When I put it back on, there was a very obvious shadow of a former sight extending aft of the now installed Buffington sight. The holes in the barrel line up perfectly for the Buffington. As I hope the photos show, there is no readable serial number. Too, the bore is still disgorging rust after soaking in Hoppes, and I'm still soaking the breechblock in penetrating oil hoping to free the firing pin and the firing pin retaining screw. I think the firing pin may be a replacement as the screw head is buggered and will not budge. The pin looks to be brass or brass alloy.

Once again, thank you all for the help you've provided.

VG

http://www.jouster.com/forums/album.php?albumid=287

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm guessing the Buffington was once installed backwards? That screw is incorrect (it should fill out the hole) so you'll need them both.

Reading the serial is going to be, as they say, a "challenge"! You might be able to bring it up with a mild stoning, just don't use an abrasive which leaves scratches. There are also other tests which measure the deformation of the metal when struck with the die. If you know a dentist, an X-ray MIGHT bring up something.

The bronze firing pin is not unexpected. They were introduced to stop the rusting in place of the steel ones. If you are carefull you should be able to drill out the FP screw, or use an EZ-out. Just don't damage the block in the process!

Keep plugging, and good luck!

[Dick Hosmer]

It would require an awful lot of "wear" to completely obliterate the number - that was a hardened part, and nothing really rubs there, as it is somewhat protected by the adjacent hammer. Deserters, and Indians after LBH, are known to have filed off the numbers. Is your carbine an early one?

[John Sukey]

Another thought is Bannermans in N.Y. bought out the entire supply of trapdoor parts and most of the surplus rifles when we went over to the Krag. They coulkd have assembled the rifle from parts. I believe they sold them for $1.50 around the turn of the century

[psteinmayer]

My 1873 was identified as a possible Bannerman by Dick. It still shoots pretty good though!

[gtodan]

The numbers on mine were not stamped real deep. With the amount of corrosion there it could easily have obliterated the number. Any CSI guys here?