Two shot group phenomenon

[Dolt]

Gentlemen and Ladies:

I shoot several vintage military rifles: M1 Garand, SMLE N.4 Mk2, Krag 30/40, Springfield 03/A3. With all of these rifles I am unable to get 3 shot groups smaller than 4-5 inches. Two shot groups are typically 1.5-2 inches center to center. I surmise that this must be due to the barrel heating up and bearing on the wood of the stock on one side or the other. It is just amazing how often I find this problem. I even have a Ruger M77 30/06 that does the same thing. From a practical standpoint this is not a big deal for me, but I was wondering how many other members find this to be the case with their rifles.

[John Sukey]

Military rifles are minute of people, not minute of angle.

[JB White]

Speaking of the Ruger M77 in 30-06, my ultralight carbine did the same thing. First two shots touching or almost touching then the group would string vertical. #3 would be just above the first two and it would continue to string on subsequent shots until the group settled in nearly 8" higher than the first two shots and wider at about 2 1/2 MOA.
Great hunting rifle. Lousy plinker :)

[kcw]

A friend of mine has a 300 Weatherby which will print inside 2" with factory ammo @ 200 yds...if the second round is fired within approx. 45 seconds of the 1st. If you allow the barrel to sit for longer than 45 seconds after the 1st shot, it will "pop" . I forget exactly which way it goes, but you end up about six" from were you started. It'll shoot a real nice group there, if you keep the barrel heated. Allow the barrel to cool back to air temp and it'll "pop" back to where you started. It has one of the light factory barrels which is floated.
He thought about getting it rebarreled, but after I don't know how many successful elk hunts, he figures it's good enough "as is".
On the other hand, I have a couple of those $25 "cracked stock" Turk Mauser specials that CAI sold ten years ago, which will hold zero even after the barrels are hot enough to fry hot dogs on.

[Dolt]

Military rifles are minute of people, not minute of angle.

I agree, but some military rifles are much better than that. I am happy with what I call "minute of pie plate" in a military rifle. Most of the ones I have had will group as tight as "minute of hamster" for two shot strings if I do my part.

[dogtag]

My military rifles never agree with me as to where the bullets are to go.

[Art]

I've shot so many two stage military triggers that I've actually gotten to where I like them...well as long as the first stage isn't ridiculously long. They are designed with novice shooters in mind. With an accurate rifle like a good M1 or '03A3 I can shoot a pretty nice group (2" - 3") and sometimes a little better, if I'm having a good day and "hold my mouth right." This is obviously nothing like a good 'scoped commercial bolt gun of course.

[bobby L]

I wonder after three or four rounds fired, what the minute of ___? would be for a British Jungle Carbine (Mark V) ?

[Guamsst]

I have a Longbranch which will shoot a 1" 5 shot group with hand loads. It has all new wood on it though. The majority of my "keepers are good for 2"-3" groups all day. That being said, my keepers are usually the best all around condition.

I have fired a ton of military rifles and most are right at a 4" group. I have never had a problem with a tight 2 shot group growing on the 3rd shot.......or atleast I don't think I did. Could be I was blaming myself when this happened.

I did have a friend who had a similar but much worse issue with a Mosin 91/30. With each shot it seemed to get more of a wandering zero.

He asked me to shoot it. We put up paper at 75yds and I fired a shot. 1"right and 2" high od bullseye. I disregarded the point of impact and lined the sights up where I did the first time, trigger pull, breathing, everything was the same and I had a perfect duplicate second shot. He said I hit the same spot but I couldn't see the hole. I looked through his spotting scope and I just stretched the first hole a little. I told him it seemed good to me. He said "Just keep shooting" The group went out in a counterclockwise spiral from there. He later tried to swage the bore and the lead fell about 2" when it was about halfway down the barrel. It had rusted out in a short section of the barrel and while cold it was not a problem. As the barrel warmed up the bullet seemd to have trouble stabilizing as it went through the loose patch.

After 70yrs allot can go wrong.

As to military rifles being "point of person" Sure, now most are but in good condition the majority I have dealt with have been much better than that. Devils Advocate though, MILSPEC on AR-15 basically means it is nearly crap. The MILSPEC is a 4" group at 100ys. But, people like to pay extra for "MILSPEC"