45 ACP ???

[older than dirt]

Hi, I`m a rifle reloader, 270W, 30-06, 8mm, & 45-70. I want to start reloading 45 ACP, so my question is, how critical is the case length on the 45`s? Thanks in advance.

[Johnny P]

In many years of loading many .45 ACP I have never trimmed a case. I have read that the .45 ACP case actually shrinks with usage, but I have not checked this out. If you are loading for most anything except one of the Ruger convertible revolvers, case length will not be an issue. In a 1911 style pistol the case is held in place by the extractor, so headspace is not an issue. In the Ruger, if the cartridge goes far enough into the cylinder the firing pin may not reach it.

[m1ashooter]

Not an issue IMHO. I've shot my cases numerous times with out issue. Some I've had for 20 years.

[Hefights]

I did run controlled test on Federal and Winchester cases that had been fired and reloaded 7 or more times. The case lengths did decrease measurably with use. Supposedly (officially), the case headspaces on the mouth in 1911 pistols. But as stated above, in practice its often or usually the extractor, and its not a problem. Its one of the easiest of all cases to reload.

The thing to watch with old pistol cases is their continued ability to grip the bullet tightly, which is very critical for safety. One way to test them is once reloaded, try to push the bullet nose into the brass case against a wooden block. They should not depress at all into the case. Disclaimer - I don't necessarily recommend keeping and reloading cases that long, however mine last a pretty long time too.

[joem]

"In a 1911 style pistol the case is held in place by the extractor".

I take issue with this statement as I've always been told the the .45 ACP head spaces on the case mouth although the extractor does tend to hold the case.

[C5M1]

Had an ill fitting extractor that would not ride over the the case causing jams about 10% of the time. While the 1911 does work somewhat like a controlled feed it doesn't all the time. With a properly fit/working extractor one would never realize it unless you took some slow motion vids.

I can see where a case might be so short that the extractor won't engage the case but have never had it happen in many thousands of reloads; Also don't check my cases for length, its never been an issue.


regards, dennis

[Johnny P]

The extractor in a 1911 is not suppose to ride over the rim. As the slide comes forward and contacts the cartridge sitting in the magazine, it slides up the breech face and under the extractor.

In a perfect world the .45ACP would exactly rest on the shoulder of the chamber, but nothing being perfect, the extractor takes care of cases too short to touch the shoulder and nothing happens. Col. Hatcher relates in his book Hatcher's Notebook how he fired 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP) in a 9mm Luger. The .380 case is .072 shorter than the 9mm, so results should have been catastrophic with over .07 excessive headspace. Instead the pistol fired with no problems other than the .380 cartridge did not have enough power to cycle the 9mm Luger. The cartridge in a Luger is stripped from the magazine and slides up under the extractor which is at the 12:00 position to the chamber. It was designed to do this, as all chambers and ammunition cannot be manufactured to a standard where they would exactly come to rest on the shoulder of the chamber.

[C5M1]

The extractor in a 1911 is not suppose to ride over the rim. As the slide comes forward and contacts the cartridge sitting in the magazine, it slides up the breech face and under the extractor. In a perfect world yes. I know what your saying Johnny: Mausers are controlled feed also but have had many instances where the cartridge being picked up from the magazine ended up in front of the extractor. A good turn of the bolt will ride the extractor over the case. Had one 03 that needed a little extra finger pressure half way down the extractor to overide.





I'll bet a nickel that every 1911 with a proper extractor will over ride a cartridge that is single loaded in the chamber. Try it! All the ones I've had through the years did except for one, which, is now fixed. If it won't it will jam when one round isn't picked up and fed the way you described above.


regards, dennis

[Johnny P]

The extractor in a 1911 is not suppose to ride over the rim. It means exactly that, and that was the way it was designed. I didn't say if you dropped a cartridge in the chamber the extractor would not go over the rim.

The .45 shot cartridges issued in survival gear were too long to go in a magazine, and had to be loaded by dropping them in the chamber, but this is nor normal functioning. And, we weren't talking Mausers, but during normal operation the Mauser extractor doesn't jump over the rim either. The Mauser is controlled feed by design.

[p246]

To the O.P. question. I've loaded buckets of 45 ACP. Never trimmed a case. Reload 6 to 7 times depending on brand then toss it. If I have an issue its been spilt case at crimp end usually. Once in a while I will have a primer pocket get loose on me. Some swag it back in but I have no problem getting that brass so I toss it. Enjoy I find it easier then loading bottle neck rifle.

[jimb]

Actually, the extractor was designed to ride over the rim. It was designed that way so the gun could be used single shot if the magazine was lost. It is a typical combat expedient. A single shot is better than a no shot. That is also why it was designed without a mag disconnect.

[Johnny P]

The extractor was designed where it would go over the cartridge rim if necessary, but the pistol was designed as a controlled feed.

The magazine disconnector wasn't even considered in the design stages of the 1911, not that they debated the issue and decided not to use one. The Nazi era police Lugers had the magazine safety added, but it proved so troublesome that they were quickly removed.

[amber]

I've reloaded many thousands of .45 ACP cases using both 230 gr. Full Metal Jacket and 200 gr. semi-wad cutters. I have never trimmed my cases. I have not reloaded or shot .45 ACP in many years. I can not remember the powder weight I used for the 2 loads, but I ALWAYS used BULLSEYE Powder. Worked great!!

[Johnny P]

There are a lot of new powders out and have tried a few, but find no reason to quit Bullseye and Unique.

[Hefights]

The extractor in a 1911 is not suppose to ride over the rim. As the slide comes forward and contacts the cartridge sitting in the magazine, it slides up the breech face and under the extractor.

In a perfect world the .45ACP would exactly rest on the shoulder of the chamber, but nothing being perfect, the extractor takes care of cases too short to touch the shoulder and nothing happens. Col. Hatcher relates in his book Hatcher's Notebook how he fired 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP) in a 9mm Luger. The .380 case is .072 shorter than the 9mm, so results should have been catastrophic with over .07 excessive headspace. Instead the pistol fired with no problems other than the .380 cartridge did not have enough power to cycle the 9mm Luger. The cartridge in a Luger is stripped from the magazine and slides up under the extractor which is at the 12:00 position to the chamber. It was designed to do this, as all chambers and ammunition cannot be manufactured to a standard where they would exactly come to rest on the shoulder of the chamber.

Some boxes of my older .45 ACP cases are I'm sure well short of headspacing on the mouth in the chamber as originally intended. Yet the 1911 pistols function just fine and the reloaded cases perform just fine. So something, namely the extractor I presume is handling it.

[Parashooter]

No, folks, it isn't the extractor. It's the particular design of the 1911 firing pin - which is free to travel as far as necessary (given a stout hammer spring) to hit the primer even when it is much farther forward than specs require. If you don't believe this, remove the extractor and fire a few short-cased handloads. Surprise - they still fire and (often) function perfectly! (The extractor's primary function is to pull unfired rounds out of the chamber when unloading.)

[Johnny P]

There is no disagreement that the extractor does just exactly what it's name implies, but yes folks, it plays a dual role. You can cut the .45ACP case back to .750, drop it in the chamber, and there is no way the firing pin will be long enough to touch it. Put the same short case in the magazine, and it will feed and fire every time because the extractor is holding it. Hatcher proved the same thing many years ago.

Half way up the breech face, and the cartridge rim is already sliding under the extractor.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2z3nty0.jpg

[Parashooter]

. . . You can cut the .45ACP case back to .750, drop it in the chamber, and there is no way the firing pin will be long enough to touch it. . .

I'm unsure why you'd want to cut a .45 case to .750" - but even if you did, the firing pin could still get to the primer -

http://i40.tinypic.com/2z3qkh3.jpg

[Hefights]

I think this article addresses the issue pretty well. Its pretty interesting.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=71&tocid=970

[Johnny P]

I'm unsure why you'd want to cut a .45 case to .750" - but even if you did, the firing pin could still get to the primer -

You probably also didn't know that the original JB design had an outside extractor, and this was changed to the internal extractor.

Cutting the case off was merely a way of demonstrating that no matter what the case length, the Model 1911 will hold the case and fire it Sorry for not explaining that to you.

[Parashooter]

I get a kick out of seeing if some of the assertions found in forums like this will stand up to a practical test. In this instance, it was "You can cut the .45ACP case back to .750, drop it in the chamber, and there is no way the firing pin will be long enough to touch it." So I cut a primed case to .730" and put it in the chamber ahead of the extractor - just to see what would actually happen when I dropped the hammer.

http://i42.tinypic.com/fmmibb.jpg

As you can see, the primer fired nicely and also backed itself out almost completely. The point is that the 1911 does not depend on the extractor to hold a short case. That long firing pin carries enough momentum to ignite a primer even when it's absurdly far from the breech face. Don't believe me; try it yourself and let us know what happens. Only takes a junk case, a primer, and a couple minutes of your time.

[budster]

In my younger years, I would trim cases for that guilt edge accuracy. When I got older and wiser, I would use better bullets and obtain the same accuracy out of my 1911A1. At this point, I no longer trim and as the above has stated...there is no difference.

[Johnny P]

Since you get your jollies doing strange things, cut it back another .250 and see if the extractor still doesn't work as a controlled feed. The entire discussion was about the 1911 Colt being a controlled feed, and you have gone to great lengths to prove that it doesn't even need an extractor, which in itself is really a "kick" as you would say. The basic 1911 design is just what it is, and your opinions won't change a thing.

Get a few books and do some catch up on the design phase of the pistol that was to become the 1911, then come back and tell us what it needs and doesn't need.

[Parashooter]

I never suggested the 1911 extractor can't hold onto a short case fed from the magazine, or that it isn't a useful item - only that this feature isn't necessary for the pistol to set off the primer on a reasonably short case chambered ahead of the extractor - or even with the extractor missing.

Johnny P wrote, "You can cut the .45ACP case back to .750, drop it in the chamber, and there is no way the firing pin will be long enough to touch it." In actual practice, that firing pin does exactly what he claims it can't. This tells me he doesn't fully understand the configuration and functioning of the 1911 firing pin. That's fine with me, as long as innocent readers aren't left believing something that's clearly untrue.