Getting the parked Krag sighted in

[madsenshooter]

Today I shot the parkerized Krag in a CMP Clinic at a nearby rifle club hoping to get a good zero for Camp Perry. I didn't do bad, nothing like a super shooter the likes of Bob S would do, but 420 out a possible 500 is good for a 118yr old rifle. I'm pretty sure the problem isn't the rifle at all, it's all the nut pulling the trigger. Anyway, I think I got the zero I wanted, shot a 95-2x in slow-fire prone, the rifle was putting em where I was pointing it when the striker fell.

They had a sitting rapid stage, something the Vintage Rifle Match doesn't have. Glad they don't. Not wishing to change my stock weld and subsequently my new found zero, I tried shooting the stage from kneeling. We won't talk about how my legs don't bend well for sitting anyway. But the kneeling rapid fire was my worse stage, with a 72.

Wonder of wonders. I made it through the whole match without a miss! Even shot a 88-1x from standing, a big improvement over last year's Camp Perry performance. I knew that tight fitting jacket would help. The rifle was shooting good enough that I could pretty much tell where the shot was going. I finished with an X and I was able to tell my scorer that's what it was before the target came up.

The guys at the range enjoyed seeing the old rifle there, one said it would be his safe queen if it were his. Another old fellow, who I've seen photographing at Camp Perry, was taking a lot of pictures. Other than me, there was a lone Garand on the line, the others were shooting AR-15s.

In all honesty, there's almost always zero wind at this range, the backstop is a huge hill that protects the range from a lot of wind, and there's trees on 4 sides. Check it out at the link below, zoom in a bit. It's nothing like shooting in the wind off Lake Erie. This is something that'd take more practice to master than I can afford to do. They're having an 80rd match tmrw. I have Garand ammo loaded, hmm. Time to do a little accounting.

https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox&ie=UTF-8&q=zanesville+rifle+club&fb=1&gl=us&hq=zanesville+rifle+club&hnear=zanesville+rifle+club&cid=0,0,2493634845349122353&ei=P8-zUaSSL8mx0AGp1IC4Cg&ved=0CHoQ_BIwAQ

That nice fitting jacket made the relative cool temps of today pretty hot. Paul, you're going to thank me for talking you into a morning slot!

[Griff Murphey]

Sounds like a great shoot, Madsen!

[Pentz]

Making me feel puny...got to get out to the range....

[psteinmayer]

That nice fitting jacket made the relative cool temps of today pretty hot. Paul, you're going to thank me for talking you into a morning slot!

Hell Bob, I'm still thanking you for introducing me to the whole match shooting in the first place. I LOVE it!!! I will say, however that I don't have a shooting coat, and most likely won't as funds are very tight right now, and they don't have one made by "Omar-the-Tent-Maker" anyway (I need a 4X). I did pick up a shooting mat this year though... and I am going to be much better prepared this year also! I'm hoping to Medal this year...

[madsenshooter]

Nothing wrong with just a sweater Paul, anything on the ol elbows to keep them from getting burned by the black rubber on the mat. I heard some comments about the age of my shooting coat from somewhere down the line the other day. "Haven't seen one like that in years!". That might be because it had "Pops" written inside of it. It's very thin, the good fitting jacket is a motorcycle leather jacket that has pads in the shoulder. Like this one: http://www.zalando.co.uk/esprit-collection-leather-jacket-black-es422g016-802.html It goes under the light shooting jacket. Wow, $380 new, I had no idea! Found it in a closet when I moved into a house. My accounting didn't allow me to go the Garand match today, but they have three matches in July. Don't be too disappointed if I use my K31 instead of my Krag. All depends on how some cast bullet shooting goes. I have some special nose pour molds made by a Pennsylvania gunsmith who catered to the benchrest bullet crowd, the late Don Eagan. The bullets I gave you are patterned after one of his molds, but base pour.

[Bob S]

nothing like a super shooter the likes of Bob S would do, but 420 out a possible 500 is good for a 118yr old rifle.


I appreciate the compliment, Bob, but I'm just the proverbial one-eyed fat man now. Can't get into a proper sitting position because of deteriorating hip. But I'm workning on an "alternative". :icon_lol:

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

So, you got the Distinguished when you was younger, most do. I was almost a small arms instructor in the AF, was on paper. Had cross training approved if I extended for 2yrs. Wife didn't like the military life, I got out. Should've stayed and lost the wife, which I eventually did anyway. Ah, hindsight..

Hey Bob, you remember that Eagan bullet I was shooting in the Krag, the MX3-30-AR? Remember I said makes a better K31 bullet? This is how it does at 2000fps out of my K31. Got me a tight bore, .294x.3055, actually tapers .005 from throat to muzzle, .3060 at the throat.

[Bob S]

Bob,

My Distinguished badge is an antique. So is my retired ID. :-)

I am pretty sure I have that mould around here someplace. Would appreciate your load data (for Krag and K31) if you would. By email if you don't want to publish .....

Bob S.

[madsenshooter]

In my Krag with a .301/.310 pipe, it was 20gr of Blue Dot, the bullet seated out into the rifling, which left that big lube groove above the case mouth. In the K31 I'm using 25.7gr of a Swiss made powder, SPP210, that Wideners was selling at one time. They said 4198 speed, but others have indicated it's a little faster. I was getting 2000fps out of both rifles. With the tighter bore of the K31, I couldn't get up to 2000fps using Blue Dot without pressure exceeding the strength of the alloy, which was about like lino, but with a little copper. I've had the bullet faster in the K31 using slower powders, but 2000fps seems to be it's best accuracy level. My mold was the last one made with the old worn cherry, so it's probably minimum dimensions. Cherry broke next time I had a mold maker try to cut a mold for me.

[madsenshooter]

Grumble, grumble, what a mess! I went out the other day to see which of 4 loads shot the best. Well, somehow during my recent move it seems some loads with different powders, which were otherwise the same, got mixed together. Only a 2gr difference in the powder charge, cases can vary by more than that, so I couldn't weigh them to discover which was which. Pull em down, start over. They were mixed when I was trying them for accuracy, and probably at the match I shot a couple weeks ago. "Oh, bother!", said Pooh. If I had enough components, I'd have just used the mixed ones for fun rounds and started a different batch rather than pull them down, but....

[madsenshooter]

Made it to the nearest 100yd range today. I've been playing with a variety of powders under the Nosler 168 trying to get something that would shoot less than the 3 moa I was averaging. I've narrowed it down to a couple, finally. Best of the day was a Swiss made powder, same stuff I've been using in the cast load above, SPP210. It's supposed to burn at 4198 speed. Loads in my 6x45 indicated it does, but there are fellows on castboolits.com having problems with it, one says he gets 200fps less with the SPP210 than he does with an equal charge of 4198, another says he has to reduce his charges of SPP210 to get the same velocity as 4198, and others say they're getting hangfires. Anyway, I decided it try 28gr of it today under the Nosler and shot a 5 shot 100yd group with the 1902 sight that was 1.9" wide x .75" tall. Three X's and two tens on the SR-1, two of the three shots in the X ring touching. I don't know how fast it's going, targets don't care anyway, but 2.3gr less gives me 2000fps out of my K31 with a 164gr cast bullet, so I'll guesstimate 2100-2200fps out of the smaller case of the Krag. I also got some good results with IMR4007SSC, 41.8gr of it under the Nosler gave me a nice 1.6"wide x 1.4" tall 5 shot group that dropped about an inch less than the SPP210 load, so I'm guessing it might be going 2300fps. I'll continue to work with these two powders. Eliminated from the competition were Russian 4895, AA2015 and some surplus flake powder for 50BMG plastic training ammo that burns about Blue Dot speed.

I think I can get a little more accuracy out of them by neck sizing only, all this testing has given me plenty of fireformed cases. After I had a couple jams in the match a few weeks ago I did some work on the magazine and it feeds spitzers better now, so I think I can also seat the bullets out further and get a little less jump to the rifling. Weighing and sorting cases might improve things too.

Griff, I had several model 92 or 96 carrier and follower assemblies. Comparing them, I could see that the rear of the carrier, the little tab in the center of the follower, had been modified, ground down. This allows the carrier to contact the rounds higher on the case, raising the nose of the round that's ready to feed up. I picked out the one that had been ground the most and it raises the sharp nose of the Nosler above where it was getting stuck in the crack between sideplate and receiver. Feeds like a dream now. Could be these were being modified by unit armorers and led to the changes made to the 98 follower. I had several heights of tab to chose from, the one that was in it hadn't been ground on at all. Too much up might be the cause of the dreaded "bullet catches on the chamber edge" syndrome.

[jon_norstog]

Madsen,

looks like you have vertical stringing licked! That's the big issue with most milsurps IMHO. Good going. You might want to borrow a chronograph if you can. They are pretty affordable now and a lot of shooters have them. What they are good for is checking your loads for consistency.

jn

[madsenshooter]

Maybe someday I'll get one Jon. I got higher priority items on my want list right now. #1 right now is a centering vise so I can make use of couple bullet mould cutting cherries that I have. A little hand turned vise is about the same price as a chronograph.

[madsenshooter]

I think case weighing and sorting will definitely be a help. I just took the five cases from the 4007 load in the center above, and took a good look at the primers while wearing two pair of glasses. Three of them showed more radius at the edge than the other two. Deprimed and cleaned the primer pockets on the one with the most radius, and the one with the least and found a 25gr difference between the two cases! They had been trimmed and primer pockets uniformed before firing, so there was no difference in their length or primer pocket depth. They were old REM-UMC 30USA cases. I thought the ammo makers were more consistent back then!

[Mark Daiute]

I'm taking notes on all this!

[madsenshooter]

Don't forget the two pair of glasses! LOL! Anyone wants to use any of the above is more than welcome to it. Maybe next year, if I make it, I'll be shooting some of my 2000fps cast loads Mark. More notes to take with them, alloy composition, casting temp, mold temp, load, etc.! I have cases to weigh, better get at it, fast running out of testing time.

[Mark Daiute]

I was gonna practice every Sunday. Dreams and reality collided. Time is running out.

[madsenshooter]

Yes, I have to keep that standing position from being my undoing. I used to be better at it! Weighing is all done. It appears I had cases from two lots. One that runs from 160-168gr and another that runs from 187-192gr. So I can cut the 25gr variance substantially, down to 3gr or so. Got some I'll have to get fireformed before neck sizing only, I have some 150gr FMJBTs and lots of a fast burning powder that'll take care of that little chore. Hey, the record is only 293 4X, we ought to be able to top that! LOL! I think I should ask for a no-wind day, no, just a no-wind Fri AM! Oh, and no jam ups on feeding for any of us. On that note, I found that pushing on the shoulder of the last case into the magazine with my finger before shutting the gate eliminates that with the Noslers.

[psteinmayer]

I think we ALL should top that Bob!!!

I'm with you Mark... I'm going to practice practice practice from now until the match!

[jon_norstog]

Good luck to all of you! I lived through my share of back-east muggy summers and man, I don't think I could do a match in a heavy jacket in the peak of the midwest heat. But I'm with you in spirit .. where we get night-time temps in the 40s and 50s.

Too bad you can't ALL win.

jn

[madsenshooter]

Here's the load that won, 41.2gr of IMR4007SSC. Nine shots, the shot out of the black was before I made a slight sight adjustment. 1.9" tall x 1.7 wide, would have held the 10 ring of the SR-1 if I had the sight set right. I shot quicker than I usually do, there were others waiting on the range. Knew I should have got there earlier. The SPP210 load that did so well the other day had some odd high fliers using the lighter cases. I actually have more of that powder, but I want to use the 4007 up. Five of the nine, the higher ones, were in a cluster .895 tall x .825 wide. I won't be able to blame the rifle or load since the combination will hold the 10 ring. Anything other than 10s or Xs will be operator error.

[MAG-63]

Nice shooting! I need to really work on dialing-in my Krag carbine. I've only tried a couple of loads using IMR 4350 and some 150gr M2 ball that I load for the 1903A3. I'm sure a heavier bullet will be better. I really need to do a Cerrosafe casting of the chamber and slug the bore to see what I'm dealing with. Any suggestions on loads and bullets? Most of my rifle reloading has been with IMR 4350 4895.

[jon_norstog]

"Shooting faster than usual" - a lot of the milsurps I've owned got really accurate once the barrel heated up. Particularly true of long Mausers like the G98. Those five in a cluster may be your last five shots.

jn

[madsenshooter]

I can't say Jon, I wasn't taking the time to look through the spotting scope between shots, only spotted the first one. I did note, as you said, that the hot barrel helps grouping. Used to get a little peeved when the cast bullet benchrest shooters would take breaks that allowed my barrel to cool. I'd have to burn up more ammo as sighters to get it hot again before shooting my string for score.

MAG 63, closest thing to a carbine I have is 24" barreled cut off 92/96. I've noticed that my two long rifles seem to like loads where the exit pressure would be around 5000fps. More than one way to get there, either something fast burning like the SPP210 above, or a slow burner that doesn't get up to a very high chamber pressure. The groups with the 4007 load have gotten progressively smaller as the powder charge went down. I started with 44.4gr, extrapolated from .303 British data, wound up a couple grains below start charges for the .308. Chamber pressure should be somewhere around 37,000psi and should drop down to around 7000psi before bullet exit, I'm guessing. Not much help to you I'm afraid.

[psteinmayer]

Nice shooting! I need to really work on dialing-in my Krag carbine. I've only tried a couple of loads using IMR 4350 and some 150gr M2 ball that I load for the 1903A3. I'm sure a heavier bullet will be better. I really need to do a Cerrosafe casting of the chamber and slug the bore to see what I'm dealing with. Any suggestions on loads and bullets? Most of my rifle reloading has been with IMR 4350 4895.

4350 is usually a good bet in a Krag. 220 grain bullet is also the norm... Is it a true carbine or a cutdown? In a shorter barrel, you could shoot a lighter bullet along with a faster powder like IMR 4064.

These days, for my 1898 Rifle, I only shoot 220 gr Hornady jacketed round nose bullets over 40.0 grains of IMR 4350. However, in my cutdown sporter (24 inch barrel), I shoot 165 gr Hornady boat-tailed Jacketed spire point bullets over 38.6 grains of IMR 4064. With the shorter barrel, the faster moving bullet doesn't need the lengthy burn of a slower powder.

[Mark Daiute]

Bob- I'm 99% sure I have my CP load. 49 Grains of 5010 under the 311284 cast from wheel weights and air cooled, sized to .311. From the bench I put 9 of them in the 10 ring (at 200 yards) yesterday with one flier. The same good results followed me to prone and offhand. The downside was some primer issues which may have something to do with seating depth of the boolit. I had set the calipers to 2.989 instead of 3.089.

I'm gonna neck size the brass, set the boolits to the proper length and if I get the same results I'm good to go. Otherwise I'll be dropping back to my old standby the 314299 over 16.5 of 4759.

[madsenshooter]

Your caliper faux pas reminds me of myself. Yesterday I started to load my rapid fire rounds, got four of them done, looked at the scale, it was set for 31.2gr not 41.2gr. I'd previously loaded all my slow fire rounds 10gr short! I would have really been scratching my head at the match as I would probably have had to put the slider up around 5-6 hundred yards to get on the target! I used a 7.5x55 Lee Collet Die with a washer under it to size the neck of my slow fire rounds, only sizes about 2/3 of the neck. But, I found my chamber is large enough that the shoulder swell sometimes doesn't want to pass between side plate and receiver. I had one of the collet die sized rounds hang up between plate and receiver with a couple rounds below it. Opening and closing the gate cleared it, but fit is a bit too close for comfort. So the rapid fire rounds got full length sized with the die adjusted to just touch the shoulder angle. Shoulder diameter of the collet die sized rounds is .420" vs .4155 for one full length sized in an old Hollywood Gun Shop die that's close to being a small base die. I don't know how you neck size, but might be something for you to keep an eye on, we wants no jam-ups this year!

I don't know what your primer issues were, but there's no way you're going to get an overload with 5010, no matter what the primer says. Sometimes bullets seated into the rifling, and I know NOE's 311284 is close to, if not already into the rifling, take a bit more pressure to get movement started. They refer to it as start pressure on castboolits. Primers are just not a good indicator of overall chamber pressure, unless they're really out of sorts. Maybe someone with quickload can run the load for you to ease your mind. 59.6gr of it or an equally slow burner (870, 8700, 50BMG, etc.) under the same bullet in the 06 would only produce 25-28Kpsi, and 2000fps according to a quickload sheet parashooter put up in the Garand forum. I shot a WLRM with no powder or bullet once, just a stuck in the neck gascheck and it came out pretty flat! I think they vary by manufacturer and even by lot.

[madsenshooter]

All done re-reloading. Weighed all the finished rounds. The 25 slowfire rounds have a max spread of 4gr, the 10 rapid fire rounds a spread of 1.2gr. I'm as ready as I'm going to get.

[jon_norstog]

Good luck!

jn

[psteinmayer]

I have a feeling that Bob and Mark are going to clean my clock at Perry! Ahhh Well.... Guess, I'll just try to medal this year!

[madsenshooter]

I really don't compete with anyone but myself Paul. Just hoping to do better than I did the last go round, and having a little fun while doing so. Having said that, I wouldn't mind passing on a rifle that won a major match, give the kid something to shoot for. Other than that, I'm just a 55 year old kid playing a game his father wanted to but never could because of other responsibilities and an illness that got to him when he was about my age.

[MAG-63]

4350 is usually a good bet in a Krag. 220 grain bullet is also the norm... Is it a true carbine or a cutdown? In a shorter barrel, you could shoot a lighter bullet along with a faster powder like IMR 4064.

These days, for my 1898 Rifle, I only shoot 220 gr Hornady jacketed round nose bullets over 40.0 grains of IMR 4350. However, in my cutdown sporter (24 inch barrel), I shoot 165 gr Hornady boat-tailed Jacketed spire point bullets over 38.6 grains of IMR 4064. With the shorter barrel, the faster moving bullet doesn't need the lengthy burn of a slower powder.

It's a cut down rifle with a 1902 rear sight and an '03 Springfield front sight. Common, I know, but the work was very well done. I was thinking that bullets in the 180-200g weights might give me good results. I only have 2 .30 cal rifles, so my stock of powders has been limited to IMR 4350 and 4895. I will look into the 4064. With all of the current madness, the bullets might be the more difficult part of the equation.

[Mark Daiute]

The only clock I'm gonna be cleaning is my William Johnson 30 hour OG clock made in Connecticut circa 1840. Like Bob I'll be competing with myself. It'll be a victory If I don't screw up during the rapid fire round.

[madsenshooter]

This will be my third time, I need a little something more than a T-shirt for my $40! Speaking of that, I hope they have a different design this year, something other than that British rifle. Of course my choice would be a Krag.

Mag 63, I'd go with your 4895, powder is even harder to find than bullets right now. I usually cast, only reason I'm going with the Nosler 168s is that I got 1000 for $180 a couple years ago. That's 1980's price! Don't let the "light bullets don't shoot good in a Krag" fallacy deter you from trying them. Here's an oddball load, 123gr .310 diameter Hornady V-Max bullets, propelled by a caseful of surplus 50BMG powder: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?2951-Krag-myth-busted. And here's another with the same bullet, but Blue Dot as the propellant: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?8864-krag-group-of-the-day. You just need to experiment with it, spend more time out at Blue Rock or a range closer to you. Just don't go overboard on velocity, work up from the lower published data, I wind up working loads down to find the best accuracy, all too often. I used that Blue Dot load at a ZRC clinic once. The instructor was asking me why my rifle sounded so funny! Said I was shooting pistol loads, but the bullet is going over 2400fps. The Blue Dot burns fast, so the bullet is sorta coasting with the pressure of the expanding gas pushing it out the 30in barrel. Pressure is down to around 5000psi by the time it exits. I know, experiments take time, but it's necessary as each rifle seems to have its own likes. What works good in mine, might not be the thing for yours. Found another Blue group: http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?12097-Blue-Dot-withdrawal!

[psteinmayer]

I really don't compete with anyone but myself Paul. Just hoping to do better than I did the last go round, and having a little fun while doing so. Having said that, I wouldn't mind passing on a rifle that won a major match, give the kid something to shoot for. Other than that, I'm just a 55 year old kid playing a game his father wanted to but never could because of other responsibilities and an illness that got to him when he was about my age.


The only clock I'm gonna be cleaning is my William Johnson 30 hour OG clock made in Connecticut circa 1840. Like Bob I'll be competing with myself. It'll be a victory If I don't screw up during the rapid fire round.

Yeah... all joking aside, I'm also going to be just trying to not screw up too badly. in all honesty, I would like to just improve on last year! Last year was my first Match, and I was feeling sick to boot because I hadn't eaten anything (not a smart move for a type 1 diabetic)... so I scored pretty low (near the bottom of the list). This year, I'll be much better prepared!

[psteinmayer]

It's a cut down rifle with a 1902 rear sight and an '03 Springfield front sight. Common, I know, but the work was very well done. I was thinking that bullets in the 180-200g weights might give me good results. I only have 2 .30 cal rifles, so my stock of powders has been limited to IMR 4350 and 4895. I will look into the 4064. With all of the current madness, the bullets might be the more difficult part of the equation.

MAG-63, unless you're going to shoot 200 grain or heavier bullets, I would stay away from the 4350. In MHO, it's much too slow of a powder for lighter bullets. 4064 is a pretty good universal powder for mid-weight bullets, and can translate across a very large array of different calibers/cartridges. I use it for my Garand 30-06 and 7.7x58 (Jap) loads, and with lighter bullets in my 30-40 loads. Also, as Bob said, 4895 is good as well!

[MAG-63]

Thanks for all the info guys. I should be back stateside in a few weeks and really want to spend some time at the reloading bench. Because I was focusing on my 1911s and pistol shooting, I haven't fired a round out of the Krag in a very long time, but I have been bitten by the "bug" again. Besides the 150s, I have enough 180s to workup some loads, and a decent amount of 4895 on hand to start with.