Sling swivels on 1899 Krag carbine - I think I already know the answer, but...

[Rick the Librarian]

I've been looking more closely at the "basket case" Model 1899 carbine I reported on earlier, and decided to delve into the sling swivels that are mounted on the stock. Mallory goes into the "history" of how a number of 1899 Krag carbines had these fitted. Naturally, I wondered if mine was one of these.

First, I don't have anything "invested" into this carbine - in the shape it is in, it isn't exactly a pristine museum piece. Second, as you can see by the pictures, the inletting isn't exactly first class, which would lead me to believe a former civilian owner did this, but I thought I'd seek the wisdom of the group.

The forward sling swivel:

http://www.fototime.com/B912884A2774946/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6244D87A27FB118/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/B54146DBE49DACD/standard.jpg

The lower sling swivel:

http://www.fototime.com/433FA459ACF80E3/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/24CE5952D0650D3/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/882B1963DA79CBC/standard.jpg

[sdkrag]

I believe that "if" there are engineer carbines the rear swivel was inlet and the front band was replaced with a rifle band with the swivel mounted. I have observed several that I believe may fit the description that Mallory gave. What leads me to believe it may be true is the positioning of the rear swivel. The story is that a jig was provided by the arsenal to accomplish field installation for engineer units. Those that I have observed are slightly askew in their inletting, indicating use of the same jig. Who really knows?

[Rick the Librarian]

According to Mallory's book (p. 105, "Engineer Carbine"), "...Springfield sent out four-piece tool sets (two cutters, one countersink, and a holding jig) to forts and arsenals to allow field installation of butt swivels in carbine stocks..."

The rear swivel inletting is done pretty well on my carbine, but the forward one is pretty rough, as can be seen in the pictures above. But, after being stuck in a damp, dirty shed, for goodness-knows how many years, I don't know if the treatment had something to do with it.

[5MadFarmers]

At a guess it had swivels added oh so long ago. Later the barrel band with swivel was lost or damaged and one without a swivel added. That's when the front swivel was added - poorly. The rear one should be in the expected place location-wise whereas that front one is not normal at all.

[Rick the Librarian]

Actually, I do have an extra loose band with the holes for a swivel, but I assumed it came from a rifle. As the front swivel, however imperfectly, is already on, I don't think it would make much sense to add the other band

So you're thinking that possibly the rear swivel may have been added to the carbine when in military service? When it was decided to do so (as discussed in Mallory), a new lower band was substituted instead?

[5MadFarmers]

Define "military service." Does that differ from "under government control?" If the answer is "yes" then no. If the answer is "no" then yes.

The Krags were used in schools. Think ROTC and Junior ROTC type activity. The guns were supplied by the government. Prior to the Krag era "cadet" guns were made and the issue was wider than West Point. Cadet Krags weren't made in large numbers and, regards 1898s, not at all. They used standard guns. Now apply your main area of interest. How does one make a Krag "more like the current service rifle" which was the '03? Add swivels and slings. The schools had the option of having the armory and arsenals do the work or having it done locally. When the swivels were added they used Krag swivels. Notice most of them are Krag, not after market, swivels? Deer hunters don't take the time to acquire correct swivels - they order from Herters and Stoegers and other places of that ilk at at that time. Yet we see Krag swivels over all. It was a wide-spread alteration. Made the guns more like the '03s. The schools with programs which were mounted (cavalry, etc.,) they desired the carbines. They were handier for the smaller stature of the kids. A Krag carbine with a sling is a handy thing.

Schools. Not military service but a government program nonetheless. Not terribly different from the CMP in some regards.

I'm not guessing. General Crozier covered it during an appropriation hearing. I also have arsenal production records showing it.

[Mark Daiute]

This is the sort of stuff that I hope will be covered in upcoming books!

[Rick the Librarian]

I should have been more specific - I meant the more "narrow definition" expressed in Mallory's book of modification into so-called "Engineer carbines".

[5MadFarmers]

While in military service a General Order directed it. That G.O. was later revoked. The wormed turned again but I'd have to line up the G.O. dates, production records, and appropriation hearing text. I have not yet done that.

As a rule of thumb "after the adoption of the '03" is likely useful. Off the top of my head production records of stocks being altered pre-date the appropriation hearing text by a decade.

[jon_norstog]

Rick,

That front swivel, I agree is from bubba. As 5MF points out the rear swivel is, if not in-serbvice, at least US-sanctioned. I had a 95/96 outfitted with swivels - a great hunting rifle - and often wondered how it got that way. I had assumed some of the engineer and artillery units might have found the Krag carbine useful with a sling. Another place they might have come in handy was in use by the Liberian regiment that Col. Charles Young set up when he was military attache' there. I doubt any of those Krags have ever come back to the US, though.

jn

[Rick the Librarian]

As I said, I'm not trying to make this carbine something it isn't. It is too bad about the front swivel - if it wasn't there, I have an extra lower band with swivel I could install. May still do it.