Need help, keep it or deep six this 1911.

[JRM]

I have posted the pics of a SA 1911 having an "X" serial number. The majority of the reply's I have tell me the frame is bogus, illegal, counterfeit, on and on. It has been suggested that I part it out. The slide, they say, is good, the only "s" stamped part in it is the disconnector and that is good.
It has been suggested that maybe I should destroy the frame. It comes from a friend who had checked into the back ground of the pistol when he bought it from a dealer many years ago. Easiest way for me to destroy the frame is to deep six it in the Atlantic. I hate to do that but I don't want to past down a illegal firearm in the future.

I have gotten good input here is the past and the other forums I visit. I figure the best place to find out about a 1911 is here. I need help, please.

Sorry about the vertical pis, Photoshop doesn't show them that way and I can't figure out how to change them here. If you click on the pic you'll get a better pic.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr30/jrmcrmo9/1911%20SA/DSCN0145_zpsf4c26f8b.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/jrmcrmo9/media/1911%20SA/DSCN0145_zpsf4c26f8b.jpg.html)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr30/jrmcrmo9/1911%20SA/DSCN0144_zps38605ded.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/jrmcrmo9/media/1911%20SA/DSCN0144_zps38605ded.jpg.html)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr30/jrmcrmo9/1911%20SA/DSCN0147_zps45c3e050.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/jrmcrmo9/media/1911%20SA/DSCN0147_zps45c3e050.jpg.html)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr30/jrmcrmo9/1911%20SA/DSCN0146_zpscf33409f.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/jrmcrmo9/media/1911%20SA/DSCN0146_zpscf33409f.jpg.html)

[Johnny P]

The receiver isn't bogus, but the markings are. Probably stolen almost 100 years ago, and all the receiver markings removed except the Springfield flaming bomb. At sometime in the past someone knew enough about Model 1911's to try and add a Springfield Armory assigned replacement number. That one, as well as the left side markings, are bogus.

What you do with the receiver will be your decision, but that is a good example of an altered serial number, which is illegal to possess.

[PhillipM]

Look at the bright side, modern 1911 frames are easy to come by and cheap.

[John Sukey]

Slightly confused. Is this a functional firearm? Do you have it for collection purposes or as a shooter?

[JRM]

Slightly confused. Is this a functional firearm? Do you have it for collection purposes or as a shooter?

Both, shooter and collection. Does it really make a difference? If the pistol is illegal it is illegal. It goes to the little fishes ASAP.
Thanks for all the input.

[ignats]

It's a pretty iffy situation. If you get caught with it, that could be a real problem. The restamping is so poorly done that even someone with no knowledge of these pistols would think something is wrong with it. The collector value is negligible, so that relegates it to shooter status. IMO, why take the chance of getting caught with it. If you have a C&R or other FFL, you would likely lose it if ATF finds out about it. I'd be tempted to sell of the various parts except the receiver and you could probably make a few bucks. If the parts are "S" marked, they are kind of hard to find so the sum of those parts could easily be worth more than the whole and much better than a night in jail.

[JRM]

Thanks guys. It's a goner.

[Scott Gahimer]

Thanks guys. It's a goner.

Good for you! That's the smart move.

[Tuna]

There is nothing wrong with the serial number that is stamped on the frame as far as ATF is concerned. All they want is there to be a number on the frame. Even if this was stolen way back when it's been written off the government books a long time ago. So don't go throwing it away as it's still usable as a shooter. Besides maybe the number on the frame is one assigned by ATF awhile back. They used to let you pick your own number as long as it was an approved number by ATF.

[Johnny P]

If the serial number is OK, would that mean that you could change the serial number on a firearm any time you wanted to? Steal a pistol, change the serial number, and it is still OK? It really doesn't matter where the pistol came from, it is the altering of the serial number that presents the problem.

From the Federal Firearms Act of 1938:

"Section 902i forbids the shipping, transporting, or knowingly receiving, in interstate or foreign commerce, of any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered, "and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."[30] It is clear that the presumption applies only to the instant subdivision for only under this section is there any ban against such firearm."

[jim c 351]

I am aware of several Thompson Submachine guns that had the serial numbers ground off and were confiscated by the law.
The Treasury dept. allowed these police officers to crudely install a new serial number and register the guns. Several of these guns are now in the hand of collectors.
This took place before 1968. Wouldn't be permitted today.
Sometimes people get confused. They assume everything was always as it is now.
Jim C
PS, If it could be documented that the 1911 in question was once owned by the Dillinger gang and recovered and renumbered by Melvin Purvis, then bids would start at $250,000.00.
Make haste slowly.

[joem]

I also had heard that the BATF could assign a S/N to a firearm and it could be applied by the gunsmith.

[Johnny P]

The only time I have heard that a serial number could be applied to a firearm was where the firearm was stolen, recovered with the serial number removed, and the BATF authorized the serial number to be replaced. Otherwise, you are back to someone stealing a firearm, removing the serial number, and getting the BATF to authorize a new serial number.

It is illegal to possess the firearm with a removed or altered serial number, so unless the firearm was yours and originally listed on a theft report, how do you explain the missing serial number? As someone mentioned, it just isn't worth the risk of losing you right to own a firearm to keep something of low value and high risk.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=e45c117e7b7ffb2a5bcbcb8b07cacae6&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.3.1.17&idno=27

[Tuna]

As I said before it very well could be a number that was OK with ATF. I would suggest that the owner call ATF and ask them about it. He has nothing to loose and it very well could be an assigned number. If it isn't and ATF wants it then it's easy to strip off all the parts down to a bare frame and turn it in. They will not do anything to someone doing the right thing and it's pretty much the same as taking it apart and tossing the frame in the ocean.

[jim c 351]

The only time I have heard that a serial number could be applied to a firearm was where the firearm was stolen, recovered with the serial number removed, and the BATF authorized the serial number to be replaced. Otherwise, you are back to someone stealing a firearm, removing the serial number, and getting the BATF to authorize a new serial number.

It is illegal to possess the firearm with a removed or altered serial number, so unless the firearm was yours and originally listed on a theft report, how do you explain the missing serial number? As someone mentioned, it just isn't worth the risk of losing you right to own a firearm to keep something of low value and high risk.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=e45c117e7b7ffb2a5bcbcb8b07cacae6&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3.3.1.17&idno=27

Johnny,
You know what you know.
The problem is, You don't know what you don't know.
Jim C

[Johnny P]

Johnny,
You know what you know.
The problem is, You don't know what you don't know.

Jim C

Well, I have posted information from the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 that is very self explanatory, so now tell us where your information comes from. Your turn to explain what I don't know.

As to talking to the BATF, they are not one huge organization with everyone in total agreement. Talk to anyone that has dealt with them and they will tell you to get any opinion in writing, as opinions at the BATF vary.

[ww2imposter]

IF the frame is deep sixed and you decide to sell the slide I would love to have 1st refusal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jim c 351]

Well, I have posted information from the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 that is very self explanatory, so now tell us where your information comes from. Your turn to explain what I don't know.

As to talking to the BATF, they are not one huge organization with everyone in total agreement. Talk to anyone that has dealt with them and they will tell you to get any opinion in writing, as opinions at the BATF vary.
Johnny,
Here's one for you.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/24/revolver-found-on-bonnie-parker-made-federally-compliant-will-be-auctioned/?intcmp=features
Jim C
Here's another.
http://www.machinegunboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14089&hl= removed serial numbers
Let me know if you require more examples.
Jim C

[Johnny P]

Jut goes to show that the BATF doesn't always comply with federal law. The law is not hard to understand, but they made an exception if enough money was involved.

On the OP's pistol someone knew it was illegal and attempted to use a number that was similar to those used by Springfield Armory.

[Duane Hansen]

As I said before it very well could be a number that was OK with ATF. I would suggest that the owner call ATF and ask them about it. He has nothing to loose and it very well could be an assigned number. If it isn't and ATF wants it then it's easy to strip off all the parts down to a bare frame and turn it in. They will not do anything to someone doing the right thing and it's pretty much the same as taking it apart and tossing the frame in the ocean.

If you go this route and the ATF should decide they want it, they will take the whole thing and not just the frame. Then you will even be out all the parts that could have been sold or used to build another one.

[Johnny P]

The law is the law, but it is not always equally applied. A couple of years back an AK47 turned up for sale. There were no papers, but the finder was an attorney with a large firm. With a little help it was determined that it was probably a Vietnam bring-back, and had been registered during the 1968 amnesty. After being registered it had changed hands several times in the ensuing 45 years, but with no paperwork. With a little help the original registration was found, and the finder was able to get the AK registered in his name. Federal law was broken numerous times, but in the end a little help from your friends was all it took.

[Tuna]

I can see here that some people have not talked to any ATF agents before. I have talked with many of them over the years. The last one was about a Makarov pistol that had no serial number or even maker ID on it at all. The only thing they cared about was if it was made before 1968. As it was made before 1968 they stated it's not a problem at all. That was talking with one on the phone and later with one in person. Both said the same thing. Now could this frame have been a lunch pail special and never had a number applied? Anything is possible.

[Johnny P]

A good friend use to buy very worn Colt Pocket Hammerless pistols and refinish them in rust blue. At this time they could be found in quantity in the Gun List for very reasonable prices. He had a collector's license, so shipping then to him was no problem. He found a couple and called the seller.The seller wouldn't ship them as he thought it would be illegal. My friend ask him to call the BATF to have them tell him it was OK to ship a Curio and Relic to a license holder. Sure enough, the BATF agent told him it would have to go through a dealer. My friend ask him to call back and get the agents name and number, which the seller did. My friend then called the BATF agent, read them the section on the 50 year rule, and the BATF agent agreed that the pistols could indeed be shipped.

It depends on the BATF agent you talk to. Get it in writing.

[Johnny P]

Serial numbers were not required on firearms prior to 1968, but if made after 1898 and ever had a serial number, they came under the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, which the Model 1911 in question does.

[Scott Gahimer]

The law is the law, regardless of what anyone says...including a BATF agent. I agree, IF one would be interested in keeping such an example, he should contact the BATF through USPS, not email. That way, at least the BATF reply would have a chance of appearing to be the bureau's official response. However, phone calls, emails and urban rumors wouldn't be much defense, should a person have to give an account as to why he possessed an illegal firearm receiver.

I understand interpretation of the law comes into play. Anytime I hear the words interpretation and law in the same sentence, I sense that is going to cost someone a lot of money to make their case. And for what? A receiver with no collector value at all. Doesn't make sense to even pursue it (to me).