Army unit i.d. marching with Krags in London during WWI?

[Rick the Librarian]

There was a well-known picture of a large number of American soldier marching in a parade in London, early in our involvement in WWI. Does anyone know or remember the identification of the unit?

[5MadFarmers]

Depends on how accurate you want the granularity to be. There was a series of photos taken and this is one:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/16/article-1236319-079B4E83000005DC-570_964x612.jpg

The unit wasn't identified. I suppose you could zoom in on the canteens in hopes of getting the numbers but then I'd ask: "how do you know they're not reissues?"

The photo was taken in 1917. Given the location the only 4 divisions arriving in Europe that year were the 1st, 2nd, 41st, and 42nd. The 1st shipped in June and arrived in July. The 2nd shipped in August arriving in September. The 42nd shipped in October through December with the division going into combat in January. The 41st followed the 42nd a month later - taking 4 months to ship. A shortage of shipping was starting to hurt.

So we're pretty much limited to the 1st and 2nd. Except we're not. They "attached" units to larger units whereas others were separate. A railroad battalion is needed but not attached to a division. My grandfather was in a field remount unit not attached to any division. Count the total number of soldiers in the army in WW1 or WW2 and then count the divisions. Using the full complement for a division you'll find the divisions comprised well under half the men in the army. Depot units, qm units, etc., all take up men.

Next we move to the best indicator for these men: the guns and canteens. The regular army and National Guard had '03s before the party in France began for us. The combat divisions received preference in the issue in modern arms. Thus this is likely a support unit sent to support the 1st division but technically not part of the division. The 1910 canteen was in the hands of the regular and guard troops so the round canteens again point to a support unit having old kit.

More granular than that I cannot get. A newspaper photo would likely be captioned "troops of the 1st division" but that would be technically inaccurate if I'm correct.

One of my uncles spent three years in the ETO (Sicily, Italy, Southern France, Germany) "attached" to the 45th division. His Ike jacket sported the 45th division patch. He technically wasn't, in spite of actually being deployed on the line off and on, part of the divisions. His unit, presumably, is covered in Bill Mauldin's book as Mauldin was from that division. "Combat engineers. They're the guns who put down their shovels, grab a rifle for the battle, and, after the battle is over, go back to the shovel building bridges and roads." Something to that effect.

Not directly part of the division. Simply "attached." Some more directly than others.

[Dick Hosmer]

Note the CW/early IW single hook sling in the first stack. As has been noted elsewhere, slings were used until they wore out - then they were spliced and used some more!

[PhillipM]

I believe the source is an English photographer, Christina Bloom, who took photographs to make postcards.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1236319/WWI-photographs-taken-Christina-Broom-auction.html

[Dan Shapiro]

Interesting website dedicated to the "Line of Communication" troops aka "Services of Supply"

http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/freidel.htm

[70ish]

Note the CW/early IW single hook sling in the first stack. As has been noted elsewhere, slings were used until they wore out - then they were spliced and used some more!

I'm estimating that the single hook sling, with a single row of holes, is actually attached to a canteen and the single hook on the wider sling is as well. The canteens are the same surplus Civil War issues that were re-serviced for the Indian Wars, the Spanish American War and remained - most likely with many units of State troops. The wider sling was originally issued for the Haversacks that were carried up through the early 1900's and the narrower sling was the "standard" issue for the refurbished canteens. It looks like the canteens are marked with "12 ... ?" over the US. I don't have the ability to enlarge the detail very much. The nearest waist belt has some mark on it, too, but I can't say what with any certainly. Just the fact that these troops came over with Krags and IW/SAW equipments rather than '03's or '17's and the new style steel screw-on top canteens would hint that these were troops for some support function rather than a larger combat branch unit. Transportation, ordnance, MP, logistical support or......?

I hope someone has the ability to enlarge some of the images and discover who these fellas are. Ain't history fun?

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, I think you are right. After looking again, it does appear to be on some item of equipment, as opposed to one of the rifles.

[Rick the Librarian]

The 41st Division, National Guard from the Pacific Northwest, were broken up for replacements.

[thorin6]

Did anyone notice that the rear sites are M1896?

[psteinmayer]

I imagine that there are several different rear sights. It's possible that my 1898 is in this picture... I know that it was used in France in 1917/18, and may have made it's way via these troops. Anyway... I would LOVE to have one of those stacks!!!

[5MadFarmers]

The 41st Division, National Guard from the Pacific Northwest, were broken up for replacements.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Being broken up upon arrival wouldn't preclude them from marching in London if they arrived in England and then moved to France; as opposed to shipping directly to France. About a decade ago I made myself a handy table and that's what I used for the dates I referenced in my previous post. I didn't include "ports of debarkation and arrival" so I have no idea if they shipped to England or France. Enjoy.

http://5madfarmers.com/trap/ww1.png

[JBinIll]

This picture came up over on the U.S.Militaria forum some time back and I think the unit was IDed.

[alibi]

I cannot for a certainty identify the unit but I recall that the unit that "showed the colors" in the U.K. was an Engineer railroad unit.

"Order of Battle of the United States Land Forces in the World War, Zone of Interior: Directory of Troops, Vol. 3, Part 3" lists 5 regiments that arrived in Europe in July 1917. What is interesting pertinent to this image is all these units were organized from National Army or Reserve Engineer regiments:
11th Engineers (standard gauge railway construction regiment) - organized from 1st Engineers, N.A.
12th Engineers (standard gauge railway operation regiment) - organized from 1st Reserve Engineers.
13th Engineers (standard gauge railway operation regiment) - organized from 3rd Reserve Engineers.
14th Engineers (standard gauge railway operation regiment) - organized from 4th Reserve Engineers.
15th Engineers (standard gauge railway construction regiment) - organized from 5th Reserve Engineers.
17th Engineers (standard gauge railway construction regiment) - organized from 7th Reserve Engineers.

Two Engineer railway regiments arrived in August 1917 and were similarly organized from reserve regiments.

The origin of these Engineer units might explain the equipment in this image.

Rock Island Arsenal commenced manufacture of new canteens in 1898 and continued to manufacture large quantities of canteens through 1918. The canteens in this image appear to be new manufactured pattern 1898, although some or all may be pattern 1902. In any case it is not likely any of the canteens in this image were Civil War canteens that were "re-covered" or "double-covered" from in 1898. The style of the printed "U.S." on the canteens in this image was the style adopted and universally applied to field equipment starting in 1898. The straps visible in this image were Canteen-haversack straps adopted in 1899 to replace the Canteen Strap pattern 1878, and Haversack Strap pattern 1878. The Canteen-haversack Strap (not sling - a term reserved for rifle slings) was also manufactured in large quantity by Rock Island Arsenal from 1899 through 1918. The Army Regulations throughout the period 1898-1918 required the corps insignia (Infantry - crossed rifles, Engineer - turreted castle and etc.) to be placed on all field equipment except canteens, as shown in this image, although the regulations were often ignored in this regard.

The nearest canteen in this image appears to have the marking "1B" stenciled on it and if so may represent a marking applied to indicate 1st Engineer Regiment, Company B, which would be consistent with either 11th Engineers (standard gauge railway construction regiment) - organized from 1st Engineers, N.A. or 12th Engineers (standard gauge railway operation regiment) - organized from 1st Reserve Engineers.

[Dan Shapiro]

It would make sense to send in your engineers first. Hard to send fighting forces when there is no infrastructure to support, house or feed them. There may have been 'space available', given the number of casualties amongst the British and French forces, but not for the numbers that Wilson said he was sending over.

This was probably viewed as overkill by our allies...they just wanted the troops to fill the causality gaps in their armies. Pershing trashed that idea very quickly.

[jon_norstog]

Look at those faces!

"Once in khaki suits
Gee, we looked swell
Full of that yankee Doodle De Dum
Half a million boots went slogging through hell
I was the kid with the drum
Say don't you remember, they called me Al
It was Al all the time
Say don't you remember, I'm your pal!
Buddy can you spare a dime?"

I wonder if any of them ended up in the Bonus Army?

jn

[firstflabn]

http://archive.org/stream/cu31924027818099#page/n47/mode/1up/search/london

As stated in the above work, the 12th, 13th, 14th, and 17th Engineer Regiments paraded through London on August 15, 1917. Not only were they the first U.S. troops to arrive, but a big deal was made of the claim that it was the first time since William the Conqueror that an organzied body of foreign troops had been in London. Even the king and queen participated in the festivities.

About halfway down the line a good view of a canteen clearly shows '12 something.' Maybe 'B' maybe 'H'? At any rate, an easy ID when combined with the parade details.