1903 MK1 conversions.

[Calfed]

Is anyone familiar with the process that 1903 MK1's went through to be converted back to 1903 configuration (to the extent they could be)?

I've got a MK1 that has none of the original MK1 accoutrements. I'm wondering what the process for this was. Were the MK1's simply left as is until they required re-arsenalling or were they all sent through the arsenal together to be converted?



Mine has been through Raritan (or at least the stock was) and has an "SA over JFC" cartouche that I can not find any information on.

[Rick the Librarian]

In the early to mid- 1930s, they had the Mark I parts (cutoff, trigger and sear) removed. I don't know if they were really refurbished, as they had seen relatively little service. I seem to recall that many were issued to the National Guard shortly after.

[Fred]

somehow, there were some 1903 Mark I rifles that escaped having their Mark I parts replaced. Not all those Mark I rifles with the correct parts that are found today are in original configuration. Most of these have probably been restored with original parts. However, now and then one can stumble across an original Mark I that has all of its original components. I did. The High hump hand guard on this rifle is correct for the month that it was made.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m115.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m115.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m4_zps4605f7f8.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m4_zps4605f7f8.jpg.html)

http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m3_zps65c6bcd5.jpg.html

http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m17-1.jpg.html

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m111.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m111.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m113.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m113.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m114.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m114.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m19-1.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m19-1.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m117.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m117.jpg.html)

[Fred]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m17_zps274ae9d5.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m17_zps274ae9d5.jpg.html)


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m18.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m18.jpg.html)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/m3.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/m3.jpg.html)

[Handsome Devil]

I have #1106325 that I bought back before computers informed the world what was correct and what wasn't. Was told that it was a rebuild because the barrel date was off from production of the receiver. I don't buy it but so what. Barrel date is SA 7-18. Anyway mine very well may have been re-parked as the finish is excellent and almost a greenish black color. It has all the original parts on receiver. Haven't looked at it closely in years. Agree that some may have and some may have been replaced by collectors. Being that many of these were not issued to late in the game or at all, question how much detail was given to changing out the parts on a design that was neither issued in mass or at all, and was not going to be upgraded into a working functional weapon system? Nice pictures Fred of a very nice rifle. Regards, John.

[Dan Shapiro]

Picked up a CMP Mark 1 a couple of years ago. Still had the original Mk 1 cutoff parts.

[Fred]

Thanks John. It seems to me that your rifle having a barrel that is about one year earlier than the receiver would indicate that the barrel was likely pulled for assembly while the rifle was being put together from the bin of barrels that the armory had in surplus. Anyway, that's the way that I see it. Fred

[Calfed]

Nice looking MK1, Fred

[Handsome Devil]

Fred kind of what I thought. Can't remember who had such a nice data collection but quite a few MK1's near mine had the same barrel date. I bought the rifle quite a while ago and it is nice, but I like yours better. I will have to dig mine out and look at it again. I do not think my stock has as much to look at as yours in the pictures. Love wood that has been pounded with cartouches.

On pictures. I do not have the patience nor drive to become a good photographer. But some of the collectors I have met on line are just awesome. A guy from WA state who collects Mosin Nagants is fabulous with his pictures like yours are. I have a nice place in the country, lots of creative backdrops to use, not that your necessarily trying to impress others with your background scenery, but sometimes it adds so much to the picture, at least to me. The other day the greens and late afternoon sun made it almost magical looking outside. Tried to take random shots around the farm to capture the simple beauty of the late afternoon color. It was hot and humid and not very nice out, pretty just the same. Got some ok pics but somehow I just don't capture the scene like your pics or the guy I refer to from MN collecting arena. I will not loose sleep over this but am envious of your photography skills. Again thanks for sharing your rifle pics. Funny I have no real appreciation for the MK1 models, but I make an exception for yours. Regards, John.

[Fred]

Nice looking MK1, Fred

Thanks Calfed!

[Fred]

Why thanks John! I've been photographing my rifles outside because its the only place that I can show color in the wood. I haven't given a single thought to the background. It's just the rural scenery around the house which hasn't a neighbor nearer than half a mile. I sometimes wish we had a neighbor next door so that I could have someone to chew the fat with. These posts are the only social interaction that I have with anybody but the various clerks and business staff in town 25 miles away. I've been thinking about starting to frequenting the only bar within 30 miles of here just so I can converse with someone other than my wife and the dogs and horses. I just don't drink much though or even play pool for that matter. LOL! Glad you like the photo's John! I hope to have some more soon of another 03 Springfield that I'm trying to buy. : )

[dave]

Why would they "convert" them back at all? They were perfectly capable of firing '06 ammo as any '03 was. The divice was meant to be used only in raiding ememy trench's, not as an every day tool.

[Rick the Librarian]

I said I had read (forgot the publication) that many Mark Is had been issued to the National Guard. While I am hardly offering this up as "proof", I thought these pictures interesting. They were taken in New Guinea a number of years ago (but well after WWII, probably in the 60s or 70s) and show a M1903 Mark I near a battle sight. The two main U.S. units engaged in New Guinea were the 32nd and 41st Infantry Divisions, both National Guard units. Offered for what it's worth ...

http://www.fototime.com/F6A31D7562F6024/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/30A8EA7E1B2966A/standard.jpg

[Fred]

Rick, does it still have the special sear?

[Rick the Librarian]

I can make out is still has the trigger!! :D

[Handsome Devil]

Rick were there any Marines on New Guinea? The last of my WW2 vet uncles passed away not long ago he was in the 32nd {Army} and was a changed man after that. Came back with some serious issues which later on subsided. Met an old Marine who told me he was WW2 vet and served in the most terrible place in the pacific theater and asked if I knew where it was. Told him New Guinea and he about stopped in his tracks and said "yes, that is where I was" or something to that effect. Not trying to discount what you said or what he said. Just normally there were Marines somewhere around even if in smaller quantities. Quite possible the old Marine was yanking my chain too. Remember reading {don't recall where or what book} that New Guinea and Indo China {RVN, Laos, Thailand/Cambodia area} and parts of India/Burma were some of most awful places to be. Maybe in an environmental sense more so than enemy action. The picture makes the helmet and rifle appear in pretty decent shape if they had been outside for 25 years in that environment. As often the case the environment your in can be as difficult as the enemy your fighting. At least for infantry types. Great picture regardless. Regards, John.

[Calfed]

Why would they "convert" them back at all? They were perfectly capable of firing '06 ammo as any '03 was. The divice was meant to be used only in raiding ememy trench's, not as an every day tool.

The Person devices themselves were destroyed, possibly with a certain amount of secrecy. I wondered if the MK1 specific parts had also been removed from the rifle and destroyed. I realize that some Pederson devices and MK1 rifles survived intact.

As for the "why" of it, the military seems to have an affinity for uniformity.

According to John Beard, orders were given to convert these back to non-MK1 configuration (insofar as possible), but said orders were widely ignored.

[Rick the Librarian]

Rick were there any Marines on New Guinea? The last of my WW2 vet uncles passed away not long ago he was in the 32nd {Army} and was a changed man after that. Came back with some serious issues which later on subsided. Met an old Marine who told me he was WW2 vet and served in the most terrible place in the pacific theater and asked if I knew where it was. Told him New Guinea and he about stopped in his tracks and said "yes, that is where I was" or something to that effect. Not trying to discount what you said or what he said. Just normally there were Marines somewhere around even if in smaller quantities. Quite possible the old Marine was yanking my chain too. Remember reading {don't recall where or what book} that New Guinea and Indo China {RVN, Laos, Thailand/Cambodia area} and parts of India/Burma were some of most awful places to be. Maybe in an environmental sense more so than enemy action. The picture makes the helmet and rifle appear in pretty decent shape if they had been outside for 25 years in that environment. As often the case the environment your in can be as difficult as the enemy your fighting. At least for infantry types. Great picture regardless. Regards, John.

To my knowledge, there were no large groups of Marines on New Guinea. They did land on New Britain, not that far away, at Cape Gloucester, in December, 1943.

[Weasel]

In the mid 90's some friends of mine and I bought out a military school's 03's when they closed the doors. There was over 150 rifles of which about 70% were MK I's and most still had the correct parts in them. I don't believe the gov. removed those parts when the were issued as most military schools 03's I have seen that had MK I's still had the correct parts still in them.

[Promo]

Both of my Mark I rifles have the same Cutoff lever installed. While Brophy pictures two different types, it appears that one is more commonly found.

Attached my better rifle, also the only "complete one" (though missing the metal can).

[Rick the Librarian]

What John says makes sense. From the large number of Mark Is, either with the correct parts installed, or the relatively large numbers of Mark I parts floating around, it appears that many Mark Is retained their parts.

[Fred]

Nice looking rifle Promo. What is the date on your barrel?

[Promo]

The shown one is a late rifle with serial 1.172.XXX and barrel date of 2-20, so also very late. Stock is only RA-P cartouched, but correct Mark I stock. My other Mk. I rifle is serial 1.139.XXX with barrel date 11-19 and is SA over GAW marked. I somewhere also have a very nice spare Mark I stock with SA GAW marking floating around ...