View Full Version : Reloading for Springfield 1903A3
Wondering if it's safe to reload for a Springfield 1903A3 that's headspace is near the end.
I picked up the rifle from a buddy and the headspace is so-so. Closes on the NO-GO gauge
and doesn't on the Field, bolt comes over maybe 1/4 of the way. I have special headspace
gauges and it will close on a 2.054 gauge and again not the field.
I'm thinking I might be running into possible case head failures if using used brass.
How much can brass stretch before failures occur ?
Input please
Parashooter
08-10-2013, 02:28
Good new .30/06 brass can stretch about .025" before failing. Since stretch is cumulative, if you FL size back to near-original head-shoulder dimension, expect moderately early failures with reloaded cases. If you neck size or adjust your FL sizer to produce minimal end play, expect normal case life.
If the bolt doesn't close on a standard "Field" gauge, headspace is considered acceptable for rifles in service. Handload wisely and you'll have nothing to worry about.
Wondering if it's safe to reload for a Springfield 1903A3 that's headspace is near the end.
I picked up the rifle from a buddy and the headspace is so-so. Closes on the NO-GO gauge
and doesn't on the Field, bolt comes over maybe 1/4 of the way. I have special headspace
gauges and it will close on a 2.054 gauge and again not the field.
I'm thinking I might be running into possible case head failures if using used brass.
How much can brass stretch before failures occur ?
Input please
Jacko,
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/30-06%20Springfield.pdf
2.048 is minimum, 2.058 is maximum. 2.054 would be close to no go-gage length.
1/4 of the way, (almost) no one measures the rotation of the bolt in degree and advance in thousandths, one exception, I do.
"I'm thinking I might be running into possible case head failures if using used brass.
How much can brass stretch before failures occur ?"
Reloading and bad habits, a bad habit: Full length sizing a case back to minimum length, I have a few rifles with long chambers, the longest is in an Eddystone M1917, the chamber is .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber, it is .016" longer than a minimum length case, a bad habit would be to fire form cases for the chamber, instead of fire forming, I form first then fire. O fprm 280 Remington cases to 30/06.
Forming first, I form 280 Remington cases to 30/06, when forming the Remington cases I raise the forming die off the shell holder .014", after forming I raise/adjust the full length sizer die off the shell holder .014".
Another bad habit when forming, forming/sizing cases that have been fired multiple times, cases that have been fired acquire a resistance to sizing, it is possible got a case to have more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. At that point in time of the case the press flexes instead of sizing, meaning the press does not have the ability to overcome the resistance of the case to be sized.
Accumulative stretch? .025"? Depends on where the stretch accumulates. A case head can separate with the first firing if the difference in length between the chamber and case is .025".
Another bad habit, lumping all receivers together, no one scribes cases (one exception), it is always assumed the case stretches, there are many times a case when fired does not stretch. Stretch is always associated with the area between the case head and case body, that is an assumption. There are many cases that do not stretch between the case head and case body, on those chambers the case shoulder is erased and a new shoulder if formed.
Another bad habit, after a case has been fired and formed to the chamber it should not be full length sized back to minimum length/full length sized. That is where all the tools a reloader surrounds them selves with comes into play. Measure before and again after firing, apply the 'leaver policy', once the case shoulder has formed to the chamber 'leaver' there.
I use the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press when adjusting the die to the shell holder to compensate for long chambers.
F. Guffey
Exception, the 30/06 chamber and the M1 Garand. There is no standard, in the beginning there was a difference, in the beginning there was a match chamber and there was a M1 Grand chamber and another chamber for the 03 Springfield and the M1917, The M1 used the same ammo as the 03 and M1917, clearance was added to the M1, legend has it the M1 Grand had an additional .00025 increase in chamber diameter in the rear of the chamber to aid is extraction.
F. Guffey
John Kepler
08-11-2013, 10:14
Not meaning to be picky, but it's "G-A-R-A-N-D", not "Grand"......it's a man's name, and it's impolite to misspell it! And Bud, in 1936.....NO production machine tool was going to hold a fractional thousandth as you have indicated!
If you have cases fired in this rifle then just neck size the brass as Parashooter suggested. The case will fill the chamber properly and you won't have to worry about headspace.
Exception, the 30/06 chamber and the M1 Garand. There is no standard, in the beginning there was a difference, in the beginning there was a match chamber and there was a M1 Grand chamber and another chamber for the 03 Springfield and the M1917, The M1 used the same ammo as the 03 and M1917, clearance was added to the M1, legend has it the M1 Grand had an additional .00025 increase in chamber diameter in the rear of the chamber to aid is extraction.
F. Guffey
"Exception, the 30/06 chamber and the M1 Garand" The information is available, I acquired a gage that measured .000005", I assumed they, in the old days made the gage for future use.
The information was made available before the Internet,
F. Guffey
If you have cases fired in this rifle then just neck size the brass as Parashooter suggested. The case will fill the chamber properly and you won't have to worry about headspace.
There are reloaders and there are those that talk about reloading, there is no excuse for a reloader to fire form. If what Parashooter said about case stretch is true, a reloader can have case head separation with the first firing. All receivers are not alike.
F. Guffey
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is something very sick about the forced conformity of thought.
IF you read what I said that if he had cases fired in this rifle he can then neck size. I have fired formed for over 40 years and never, never had a problem with any case separating or even come close to it.
Tuna, I read what you posted, I said 'forced conformity of thought' is a very sick practice.
The M1 Garand is not the rifle that was designed to fire short cases, The M1 Garand does not have the large extractor like the Mauser.
Is there a problem? I said there were different receiver designs. Going back to a 'sorts' nursery rhyme repeated by reloaders, it goes something like this:
The trigger is pulled.
The firing pin hits the primer.
The firing pin drives the case, powder, bullet along with their little buddy the primer forward into the shoulder of the chamber.
Then there is a bang, the case expands and locks onto the chamber, leaving
the case head hanging/unsupported in front of the bolt face.
A dilemma, the case is locked onto the chamber, the case head is not supported" Problem! When hot high metal cutting gas expands the case head is forced into the bolt face, the only way that can happen with the case body locked to the chamber is stretch, but where?
The only place a case can stretch is between the case head and case body when the case is locked to the chamber. Simple? No,
No because everyone has already started working on a snarky response, the part about hot, high pressure, metal cutting gas is never considered a problem until the face bolt is cut with escaping gas from around the unseated primer. The primer unseats when the chamber is longer than the case as in minimum case length and maximum chamber length.
The bolt face can be cut with one firing when a primer goes bad, with a small difference in length between the case and chamber the bolt face cutting will appear as a black ring that looks smoked. I am the fan of reducing all that case travel.
Jacko posted"
" I'm thinking I might be running into possible case head failures if using used brass.
How much can brass stretch before failures occur ?"
Then he added: "Input please:
When the case is locked onto the chamber with the shoulder of the case jammed into the shoulder of the chamber do everything possible to reduce the distance the case head is required to move back to make contact with the bolt face. I know, sounds cool, "neck size". The damage is done, the case stretched in the only place it could stretch, that would be between the case head and case body, not accumulative, it was suddenly, all at once and without warning. If you have no feeling for the area of the case between the case head and case body at least give the bolt face some consideration.
F. Guffey
John Kepler
08-15-2013, 04:12
"Exception, the 30/06 chamber and the M1 Garand" The information is available, I acquired a gage that measured .000005", I assumed they, in the old days made the gage for future use.
The information was made available before the Internet,
F. Guffey
What in hell does having an alleged sub-micron measuring device have to do with machining something to those tolerances???? I know it's hard, but try to compare apples to apples, OK?
"What in hell does having an alleged sub-micron measuring device have to do with machining something to those tolerances???? I know it's hard, but try to compare apples to apples, OK?"
John Kepler, that was rude, You are arguing with me? The dimensions of the Garand chamber has been published, before the Internet. If you do not have this information available please ask me to provide, again, all of this information was available before the Internet.
F. Guffey
Forgive, there are those that work in the claim department, they claim the M1 Garand chamber is generous, they do not know how generous, I can only guess, they read it on the Internet.
F. Guffey
John Kepler
08-16-2013, 10:39
Yet another person making noise like an engineer without the slightest clue about what engineering is! NO ONE making an engineering drawing for a production product is going to spec a fractional thousandth dimension, not then, not now! In this case, it's even more absurd......there is an expressed production tolerance protocol that in this case involves ranges in the double-digits! NONE of my spec sheets on the chamber identify ANY fractional thousandth as a nominal dimension.....you either have an erroneous document, or have misplaced a decimal point. OH.....FWIW, I HAVE the Garand chamber specs, have had them likely longer than you have, and certainly got them "before the Internet", whatever the hell that signifies, but then you are apparently one weird Dude!
You don't want "rude", don't talk nonsense masquerading as true data!
Excuse me for the interruption.... but this thread is about 30.06 loads for the bolt action 1903A3, not about the Garand.
Closes on the NO-GO gauge
and doesn't on the Field, bolt comes over maybe 1/4 of the way. I have special headspace
gauges and it will close on a 2.054 gauge and again not the field.
I don't know what "special headspace gauges" but and I wouldn't hesitate to fire a rifle that would not take a "field" gauge but fails the "no go" gauge... with factory ammunition.
Personally I have 3 1903/A3 rifles and I use different loads for each and neck size only. If I had a headspace problem and the barrel was still good, I would probably have the barrel set back 1 thread and re chambered. (Some people will say that is a dangerous practice but I have never had a problem with any of the rifles modified that way + a very good gunsmith that did the work tells me he has done the job hundreds of times.)
If I were concerned as you seem to be then by all means either use factory rounds or reduce your loads for that rifle.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.