Griffin & Howe Style T Rifle on GB

[The Wolf]

Interesting rifle on Gunbroker. Not mine, no one's bid on it, and the auction only has one more day left. Opinions on what this might be are welcome.

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=359622907

[Rick the Librarian]

Started out as a heavy barreled rifle, sold by the DCM in 1927. The stamped swivel and the lack of a lower band definitely reduces the attraction. It ain't cheap at $3995, starting bid, but I have no idea what one like that would go for. Michael Petrov??

[The Wolf]

The double set triggers and palm ball are interesting... possibly originally an International Match rifle of some sort?

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

[Dawelda]

I have a couple of "headless" cocking pieces floating around around my parts box. I was told by a gunsmith once that this was referred to as a "national match conversion" implying it was an armory modification. Don't know how much truth is in there, though.

I agree with Rick that the missing lower band is unattractive. I am surprised G&H would not have improved this. For example, I just built an '03 sporter on a GI stock and replaced the reduced section of the stock where the lower band/retaining spring were with a piece of African ebony. They could have easily used a piece of walnut!

[Michael Petrov]

Normally the G&H "Camp Perry" heavy barrel rifles don't bring a lot of money. As this one left the Armory as a "Heavy Match" I think the owner should have got a letter and found out who it was made for. The palm rest base and set triggers could have both been Armory, more research needed.

G&H could have been sent only the action to re-barrel.

[chuckindenver]

listed as a Heavy Match rifle in my book..nice..
iv noticed a pile of rare or copies of rare 1903 variants in the last few months at auction....some are genuine...some are not...
this is a nice rifle, and a good part of history..

[The Wolf]

So, more-than-likely the barrel was shot out and the owner sent the action to G&H for a new barrel. It's a shame that the lower band was not reinstalled, as it makes for such an unattractive appearance. Those double set triggers are, if original to the rifle or time period, rare.

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

[chuckindenver]

band may have made the rifle shoot flyers..and was removed...and likely tossed in the trash over frustration.

[The Wolf]

Good point, Chuck! I keep forgetting about barrel harmonics.

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

[dave]

It would have to have been a special barrel band to fit the heavy barrel. Were they fitted to begin with?

[Herschel]

The Style T came from Springfield Armory with a barrel band. These guys were into accuracy and would not have used a barrel band if it caused a decrease in accuracy The 1903 NRA Sporters came with a barrel band and accuracy test showed the NRA Sporter was the equivalent to the 1903 National Match in accuracy. My take is that the G & H barrel was not the same size as the Style T barrel at the point where the barrel band went so the barrel band would not fit. A second possibility, a sling swivel has been installed further back than the barrel band I suspect the owner of the rifle had very short arms and the length to swivel on the barrel band was to great for him to get into a proper prone position. Of course this is just more speculation on the reason for the removed barrel band.

[The Wolf]

Thanks for the additional thoughts on this, Herschel! It's a very interesting rifle, to say the least.

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

[Cosine26]

Heavy Barrel Match Rifle
The auction has been closed on this rifle so I shall now venture my opinion for what it is worth.
According to RTL and Chuck the rifle is listed as having been sold through the DCM in 1927. Brophy reports that a small number of heavy barreled match rifles were assembled in 1924 and sold through the DCM. He also indicates that all of these rifles had been sold by 1925. Both Brophy and Campbell indicated that the “Style T” rifle was first offered for sale in 1929. It is possible that one of the 1924 rifles was not sold until 1927. The S/N of the receiver falls in the 1924 time frame so that might be a possible explanation. Some provenance may clear up this question.
Let’s examine the rifle from the pictures presented.
GOOD:
1. The receiver falls within the 1924 S/N group and the bolt matches the time frame so they are probably original.
2. The receiver is D&T for both the Lyman 48 and for telescope blocks which are furnished. The match rifles were generally so configured.
3. The Lyman 48 is a 48C (as opposed to the 48S type in the description).
4. I believe that the front swivel is forged, not stamped.
INCORRECT
1. The original barrel, front sight, barrel band and sling swivel are missing.
2. The rifle has been buffed and re-blued. The receiver has been heavily buffed, the S/N has been partially obliterated by the heavy buffing and the receiver ring inscription is not as sharp as it should be. The bolt sleeve is highly polished and the bolt is blued. I believe that most target rifles had polished bolts. The finish appears to be the “niter” finish so derided by the early gunsmiths.
3. The stock has been modified (read as mutilated) and I do not believe that it was done by G&H. The front sling swivel is very poorly inletted and the screws do not sit flush. It looks to me as if the stock has been shortened and the butt plate not well blended into the stock. The barrel channel has been modified.
QUESTIONABLE
1. The trigger guard has a palm rest affixed to the floor plate. I do no remember ever seeing such an arrangement from SA, but I can’t be sure. I am not sure that the floor plate would be stable enough for mounting a palm rest on such a heavy rifle.
2. The trigger appears to be a five lever WOODY set trigger that was well thought of in the 1920's and 1930's so would be an asset.
I believe that this is a heavy barrel target rifle that someone tried to convert to an International “Free Rifle’” configuration. G&H may have rebarreled the rifle but I do not believe that they did the stock work.
Those are just my observations. Provenance that showed that the rifle was owned any one of the more famous member of the International Teams or one of the better shooter like Mo Fisher or McDougal would raise the price to a collector. I would like to hear others comment on my ideas.

[Cosine26]

Heavy Barreled Rifles Available
Further research shows that in the January 1927 issue of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine, in the DCM section the following ad appears:
“A few U. S. Rifles Model of 1923, heavy barrel International are available for sale through this office. The rifle costs $85.00 plus $1.34 packing charges. It has the service action, heavy barrel, 28 or 30 inches in length, as desired, style NRA pistol grip stock without grasping grooves, and fitted with Model 1922 butt plate. It is equipped with the Lyman 48C receiver sight, and the Winchester Globe front-sight. The rifles are not equipped with set triggers or palm rests. Such additional work will not be done at the Armory, but if desired by the purchaser, they must make arrangements to have the set-triggers and palm rests made by a concern making such equipment. This is the type of rifle used by the International Team”.
This probably is one of the rifles.
At one time, the Armory sold off a few USED International “FREE” rifles. In those days, the corrosive primer ruled supreme, and HiVel #2, a nitroglycerine based powder, was much more uniform than the available IMR powders of the day and was in wide use by shooters. It was much more errosive than the IMR powders. International rifles were fired much more than the average rifle for the course of fire was 120 rounds and shooters tended to practice every day if possible. Under these conditions barrels wore out fairly rapidly and required replacemtn more often. Probably the reason for the replacment barrel.
Hope this additional information helps. Still a lot of missing parts.

[The Wolf]

Excellent information, Cosine26! I think you make a very persuasive argument for what this rifle more-than-likely is. A check of Brophy's book shows the serial number on this rifle to be very close to those he knew about and quoted as being 1924 International Match rifles. Yet another potential indication of it's authenticity.

Best Regards from Virginia,

Chris

[Cosine26]

Heavy Barrel 1924 International Match Rifle
Further research indicates that the Auction Rifle is probably a 1924 International Match “FREE” rifle. In a recent issue of the SRS publication there is a documented 1924 International Match rifle that is only three digits away from the Auction rifle. Last three digits of Auction rifle = 200; last three digits of SRS rifle = 203.
SRS rifle differs from the Auction rifle in a couple of items:
1. Front target block is on the barrel and not the receiver as was specified for the 1924 IM Rifles.
2. SRS rifle has a Remington barrel
3. SRS Rifle has no stock bolts
4. Palm Rest mount is like those shown in Brophy’s book-i.e. it is bolted to the side of the TG Assy and there is no floor plate.
5. SRS rifle is equipped with a Rimkunas set trigger. According to the writing at the time, the WOODY trigger was superior to the Rimkunas.
6. Bolt is polished as I thought all match rifles were. There is one possible discrepancy with the SRS rifle bolt. It is a “J6” bolt which dates to the early 20’s – 1919- 1921 according to VIS information. This would lead me to believe that the actions were not built special, but were rather assembled from selected “on hand” components.
Since the “Style T” target rifle was not advertised for sale through the DCM until 1929, and the Auction rifle was sold through the DCM in 1927 (according to RTL) , the possibility of the Auction rifle being a “Style T” is remote.
As I have indicated previously, the DCM offered for sale some of the “used” International Match rifle sometime in the late 20’s or early 30’s. Remember these team rifles belonged to the government and not the individual team members. It is my understanding, as I stated previously, that these “used” match rifles were well used. That does not preclude some of the team members buying them when they became u for sale. When FREE rile shooting started up after WWII, I remember reading about a couple of pre war FREE rifle shooters competing and making the statement that they used the pre-war rifles, but found them to be pretty well “shot out”.
FWIW

[Tom]

Yes, I agree with Wolf, excellent info Cosine. I saw the smoothed-off serial number and it didn't even dawn on me that it was over-buffed. I wonder if that was done on purpose, as possibly was a stylistic feature of that era? it would take a lot of accidental buffing to get it that smoooth.

[Cosine26]

Here is an interesting item from the "Arms Chest" of the AMERICAN RFLEMAN for October 15, 1923. Larry Nuesslien was on the International Team for many years. Since this appears in a 1923 Rifleman, it must be one of the earlier Internatiion Match Rifles. Would you pay $55 for it?


http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/FreeRifle0001_zps353104a8.jpg

[Bill Wylde]

23306

I believe this old klunk to be representative of the rifles Cosine speaks of. The serial number is 1257681 and the barrel is a 1 in 12" twist Winchester.

This rifle is one of two that I've had for years. The other, not documented, is 1257703. That rifle has one of the 10" twist Winchester barrels.

[Cosine26]

Hi Bill
I agree with you. I believe that 703 falls within the range of 1924 Internatiional Rifles. 701,702,704,705 and 706 are, as you probably know, documented as is 681.
Nice rifle and a prize for the knowing.

[Bill Wylde]

I remember well shooting the 10" 703 rifle on Jack McCann's (near Edwardsville, IL) range @600 yards year ago. The bullet was a 190 Winchester with some known load of the day. The old bird shot very well! I'm not sure that the 681 rifle doesn't also have an interesting career while in the hands of former owner, Fred Johansen.

[Cosine26]

Hi Bill,
I did not know Fred but he and my friend Roy Dunlap were memebers of the old Chigago Rifle team. 703 with the 190 Winchester bullets was a good combination. I'm an not sure that 681 with the 12' twist would shoot them as well. I used the 190 Sierra and the 200 gr Winchester bullet in my 300 H&H Winchester Bull gun. A day of shooting these in some of the long range matches with max loads was fairly tiring.

[Bill Wylde]

You don't have to tell me about that, Cosine. I shot the big 30's, but finally found the 6.5X.284. That's a LR cartridge! Off to KY dam tomorrow for some Catfish.....................