What small arms on WWII battleships?

[threepdr]

The USS Alabama at Mobile has a new living history crew that will work on the ship occasionally. I have a question about what small arms would have been in the inventory when the ship was launched.

The USS Alabama was launched in Nov 1942 and started sea trials in Jan 1943. This would be too early for M1s (except maybe for the Marine Detachment) so I'm betting on 1903s. Remington was just starting to send out 1903A3s at about this time, so I think they would be too late for the ship's initial issue. However, Remington was cranking out 1903s and 1903 modifieds like crazy.

Was the navy sending the new Remington 1903s to new ships of the line, or would there been enough older 1903s (Springfields and RIs) for issue to a new battleship?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Mark Hubbs

[Rick the Librarian]

Interestingly, I have a picture of Admiral Stark inspecting the Marine detachment of the USS Washington, taken in June, 1942 preparatory to an inspection by King George VI on a visit to the ship - the Marines have M1s. This surprised me, given the fact that the FMF had M1903s.

http://www.usswashington.com/photopages/photos/admiral_1.jpg

[raymeketa]

Units assigned to a ship, such as a Marine Detachment, would furnish their own small arms and ammunition. The ship's armory would contain a variety of weapons to be used by ship's company, everything from pistols to BMGs. I'm not sure you can find the specific details that you are after. In general, there would be whatever small arms were available to the USN at the time, and depending on the type of ship. For example, a BB or CV would have a different mix of small arms from, say, a small ship that still had landing guns.

[PhillipM]

When I toured the Alabama many years ago, there were racks of plugged M1's on board.

[raymeketa]

Ships that were converted to museums will display any arms and ammunition that are available to them. That applies to the big stuff as well. The average tourist does not know the difference. I'm sure that anything original to the USS Alabama was removed when she was retired in 1962. I'm a former USN Gunners Mate. I was assigned to the San Diego Mothball Fleet in the early 1950s. One of the first things we did was remove all small arms and ammunition. Most was destroyed.

Ray

[John Sukey]

And the Navy still has boarding cutlasses. Brother-in-law went through boot camp years ago, and as he was a squad leader, that's what they issued him!

[bigskybound]

When I was working for the museum in Philadelphia that had the sad and unenviable job of trying to manage USS OLYMPIA I researched and assembled an exhibit on the small onboard arms. Since it was a Span Am war ship people had donated a few Krags over the years. However, OLYMPIA left for the Orient in 1895, prior to both the Krag and Winchester Lee rifles. Looking at the inventory from 1894, it listed .45 Ball Rifle ammo and .45 magazine rifles. They were most likely the M1882 Remington Lee bolt action magazine rifles. Located a photo of sailors from USS TEXAS drilling with RL rifles and another of sailors in a parade in Hawaii with them. Interestingly enough, OLYMPIA's Marines were still issued M1884 trapdoor rifles and there was a shipboard photo from 1898 showing this. Pistols were Colt 1884 revolvers re-barreled in 1894. And yes, they even drilled with M1860 naval cutlass!

[Johnny P]

I have a picture of Co. K, 159th Infantry of the California National Guard taken in 1940, and all rifles can be identified as gas trap M1 Rifles, so if the NG was getting M1's there should have been some on ships by that time.

[Rick the Librarian]

Had they been inducted into Federal service by then? That might make a difference.

[Weasel]

The Navy has always been one weapon behind all the other services. In the late 60's we had M1's Around 69 and 70 started seeing M14's. The Alabama was commissioned in early 1942 so I would say the shipboard rifles would have been the 1903's as the Garand was in short supply then. Just a guess.

[Bob S]

ALABAMA most likely had 03A3's ... possibly '03's. HIGHLY unlikely the ship had M1's. Marine Detachment most likely DID have M1's, but those were USMC rifles, NOT USN rifles.

M1's started to trickle into the Navy after VJ Day. The 1946 Landing Force Manual was the first with a section on the M1.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Shooter5]

The USS Alabama at Mobile has a new living history crew that will work on the ship occasionally. I have a question about what small arms would have been in the inventory when the ship was launched.

The USS Alabama was launched in Nov 1942 and started sea trials in Jan 1943. This would be too early for M1s (except maybe for the Marine Detachment) so I'm betting on 1903s. Remington was just starting to send out 1903A3s at about this time, so I think they would be too late for the ship's initial issue. However, Remington was cranking out 1903s and 1903 modifieds like crazy.

Was the navy sending the new Remington 1903s to new ships of the line, or would there been enough older 1903s (Springfields and RIs) for issue to a new battleship?

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Mark Hubbs

I recently wrote the directors of the USS Alabama and North Carolina for information on the serial numbers/types of small arms aboard their ships during WW2. The reply from the Lucky A:

"Thanks for the message.

I wish I could help you, but to the best of my knowledge and belief,
those records do not exist, certainly not here. Most information like
that would be stored under the auspices of the Department of the Navy,
no telling where if they still exist.

Your Great Uncle is certainly one of our American heroes who manned this
ship. His name is also located on the USS ALABAMA Crewmen's Association
site at www.angelfire.com/va3/bb60/index.htm

As well as on the Crewmen's Memorial on Second Deck aboard Battleship
ALABAMA.

Good luck with your search and sorry I cannot be of assistance.

Come see us!

Bill Tunnell, Executive Director"

The reply from the USS NC stated they may have some records but its going to take awhile to search.

[George in NH]

Although not aboard ship, I can offer this; while stationed (Aug 72-Dec-73) at Andersen AFB, Guam I (SP E-5) was detailed with the ANCOIC of the small arms shop to develop an Aggressor Force to be used to attack the AF equivalent of the Seabees who were in a jungle training cycle and had to defend their position against the Aggressors. For weapons, we made several trips to the armory at the Naval Station. When I first entered the large rooms I thought I was in a time warp to 1942!!! I was surrounded by M1 rifles, BAR's, Thompson's, M1911A1's and 1919A4's!!! We drew a large quantity of rifles with blanks, etc. for the training. Where are they now???
As a side note, ever seen 153 B-52's in one place (besides in storage) at one time? I was in the
43rd SPS on Guam, those babies were everywhere!
George in NH

[Rick the Librarian]

That was when Operation Linebacker was in full swing. I remember quite a few were from the 92nd Bomb Wing at Fairchild AFB, outside my hometown of Spokane WA.

[Ed Byrns]

Small arms on WW2 Battleships.
What I know for sure.
Off the USS California(BB44) small arms salvaged on 12/07/41 were:
Battery #1 96 1903 rifles,15 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #2 81 1903 rifles,14 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #3 84 1903 rifles,18 1911s,6 BARs,4 Lewis guns
Battery #4 91 1903 rifles,16 1911s,8 BARs,4 Lewis guns,4 Thompsons

USS Saratoga (CV3) turned in to stores 8/41:
5 Cutlasses
10 BARs
157 1903 Springfields

Respectfully submitted
Ed Byrns

[Dave in NGA]

Say Ed, I own one of the Saratoga's 1903's. It's an SA#1014866 in very nice condition. I purchased it from a collector in St. Louis, MO back in 1965. It shoots amazingly good groups.

[Ed Byrns]

Dave
In fact your rifle is on page two of the National Archive Document concerning the
refit(AA guns) of the USS Saratoga at Bremerton.Yours is the third one I now know of.
Congratulations
Ed Byrns

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Interestingly, I have a picture of Admiral Stark inspecting the Marine detachment of the USS Washington, taken in June, 1942 preparatory to an inspection by King George VI on a visit to the ship - the Marines have M1s. This surprised me, given the fact that the FMF had M1903s.

The Marines started receiving M1's in 1939, but not at the rate they desired (3000 per month). Smaller deployed units got them first, as the Marines abhor mix and match.

jt

[Rick the Librarian]

Makes sense to me, although it appears that most shipboard units continued to use the M1903.

[rayg]

The Navy has always been one weapon behind all the other services. In the late 60's we had M1's Around 69 and 70 started seeing M14's. The Alabama was commissioned in early 1942 so I would say the shipboard rifles would have been the 1903's as the Garand was in short supply then. Just a guess.

Well there was a few years they were ahead. They adopted the 5 shot bolt action 1879 Remington Lee 45/70 rifle that was reloaded quickly using a 5 shot magazine with addition magazines carried in a waist belt at the time the Army was using the single shot Trapdoor. Then there was the 1895 Winchester Lee Navy that fired a high velocity flat shooting 6mm rd. and that was quickly reloaded with 5 shot clips with extra clips carried in a waist belt while the Krag rds were loaded one at a time into the side magazine. Then Navy fell behind a few years later after the Army adopted the 03. Ray

[PhillipM]

ALABAMA most likely had 03A3's ... possibly '03's. HIGHLY unlikely the ship had M1's. Marine Detachment most likely DID have M1's, but those were USMC rifles, NOT USN rifles.

M1's started to trickle into the Navy after VJ Day. The 1946 Landing Force Manual was the first with a section on the M1.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

I may be wrong, but I was not aware any service but the US Army purchased 03A3's during WWII.

[Rick the Librarian]

I've seen several pictures of sailors with M1903A3s. Plus, SRS has a number of listings for 03A3s that were assigned to ships.

[bigskybound]

Man, I wish we could have found one of those Remington-Lee belts for the magazines when we did the OLYMPIA exhibit. I have never seen that style.

[rayg]

Chances would be pretty slim in finding another khaki one. I haven't seen another one like it as long as I can remember nor have I heard of another one. There has to be more out there as my understanding is the Navy used a magazine belt for the RL since 1879 when the first model 1879 Rem Lee rifle was adopted. I saw a couple of blue belts like above but they were issued to Army or militia units for the later 30/40 Remington Lee.. The khaki one is a Navy one and for 45/70 magazines and cartridges for the Rem Lee rifle and it would be issued with that rifle as used by the sailors and marines on the Olympia. I can't imagine why you don't see more of those Rem Lee Navy belts around as the belts for the 6mm Navy Lee, even though some what scarce, can still be seen in collections or for sale. Ray

[Weasel]

The Navy probably was the biggest users of the A3 at the end of the war.

[Phil McGrath]

ALABAMA most likely had 03A3's ... possibly '03's. HIGHLY unlikely the ship had M1's. Marine Detachment most likely DID have M1's, but those were USMC rifles, NOT USN rifles.

M1's started to trickle into the Navy after VJ Day. The 1946 Landing Force Manual was the first with a section on the M1.

Resp'y,
Bob S.


Bob, I have a 1943 Blue Jacket Manual and it say's the M1 Garand is Not a Navy approved weapon.

[rayg]

I had a Blue Jacket Manual that listed and had a picture of 1941 Johnson in it. I can't remember the date of the manual, it must have been an early one though. I don't know what I did with it, as I can't find it, Ray

[Finestkind]

My uncle was on Diesel subs in the late 60's and early 70's and they were using 1903's and Thompsons. He used to tell us that he loved shooting the Thompsons.


Finestkind

[Fred]

Wow!