How many Krags saw service in the Spanish American War?

[jon_norstog]

I have always assumed that every Krag the Army had was in service during the Spanish American War, and that most of them saw service in Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Philippines during the Spanish War. I was bored so did a rough estimate to see whether this is a reasonable assumption.

Carbines

Number of 1896 carbines 22,493

Cavalry Units in action or overseas
1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th,6th, 9th, 10th plus 1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry

roughly 8 regiments, 8,000 carbines, so chances are better than 1 in 3 that a Carbine saw action.

Rifles

1892 and 1896 rifles 86,459 (this number may be off)

Infantry Units in action or overseas
2nd, 3rd, 4th,6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th,

21 units, roughly 21,000 rifles. Then there were artillery units and miscellaneous staff and logistic troops. So chances are a little less than one in four a random rifle saw overseas service.

There were a couple U.S. Volunteer Infantry units that went to PR and the Phllpipines. I left them out of the count, not knowing if they were issued Krags.


I guess my takeaway on this is that we had enough Krags in the spring of 1898 for every front-line soldier in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines. Those soldiers spent enough time in camp in Florida, any halfway decent logistics system would have been able to issue the weapons and ammunition. And they had plenty of time to train. The units started assembling in April and didn't embark until mid-June.

Everything I've read about the SAW indicates that logistics and supply were the weak points in the US military of 1898. More later.

jn

[CJCulpeper]

I have always assumed that every Krag the Army had was in service during the Spanish American War, and that most of them saw service in Cuba, Puerto Rico or the Philippines during the Spanish War. I was bored so did a rough estimate to see whether this is a reasonable assumption.

Carbines

Number of 1896 carbines 22,493

Cavalry Units in action or overseas
1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th,6th, 9th, 10th plus 1st U.S. Volunteer Cavalry

roughly 8 regiments, 8,000 carbines, so chances are better than 1 in 3 that a Carbine saw action.

Rifles

1892 and 1896 rifles 86,459 (this number may be off)

Infantry Units in action or overseas
2nd, 3rd, 4th,6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th,

21 units, roughly 21,000 rifles. Then there were artillery units and miscellaneous staff and logistic troops. So chances are a little less than one in four a random rifle saw overseas service.

There were a couple U.S. Volunteer Infantry units that went to PR and the Phllpipines. I left them out of the count, not knowing if they were issued Krags.


I guess my takeaway on this is that we had enough Krags in the spring of 1898 for every front-line soldier in Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines. Those soldiers spent enough time in camp in Florida, any halfway decent logistics system would have been able to issue the weapons and ammunition. And they had plenty of time to train. The units started assembling in April and didn't embark until mid-June.

Everything I've read about the SAW indicates that logistics and supply were the weak points in the US military of 1898. More later.

jn

I seem to recall reading the 8th and 10th Ohio Volunteers carried Trapdoors. I'll try to find my sources on one of my hard drives so that it definitely rules them out of your calculation.

Culpeper

[jon_norstog]

CJ, those were all US Infantry regiments. I left out the US Volunteer units as well as the state units. I do wonder if the US Volunteer infantry units got Krags the way the 1st, and I believe the 3rd U.S. Volunteer Cavalry got them. I think I'll go over the unit histories and action reports and see which units saw combat.

It's a good thing we didn't go into the Great War with the system that was in place in 1898!

jn

[5MadFarmers]

Why skip the 7th Cavalry?

The first 3 volunteer cavalry regiments had Krags as did the Ohio volunteer cavalry (trivia question: what state was the President from?).

http://www.spanamwar.com/Southdakotacav.htm

3rd vol cav dude. Krag carbine.

[madsenshooter]

Well, we know the first 98s into the Pacific were issued to troops on their way to China. So that leaves most all prior Krag actions in the Phils done with 92s and 96s

[5MadFarmers]

CJ, those were all US Infantry regiments. I left out the US Volunteer units as well as the state units. I do wonder if the US Volunteer infantry units got Krags the way the 1st, and I believe the 3rd U.S. Volunteer Cavalry got them. I think I'll go over the unit histories and action reports and see which units saw combat.

Below for the some of the units armed before they were replaced by the U.S. volunteers.


It's a good thing we didn't go into the Great War with the system that was in place in 1898!

We did. That part of the book is done.

1st TX: 1896
4th IL: '98.
2nd SC: '96
1st NC: '98.
161st IN: '98.
49th IA: '96.
2nd LA: '98.
3rd NE: '96.
9th IL: '98.
2nd IL: '98.
4th VA: '98.
6th MO: '98.

7th corps turned in their altered muzzle stuffers for Krags at Savannah before heading for Cuba. I didn't list two battalions of engineers ('98s) and artillery ('96). 4,280 '96s and 9,200 '98s.

November 22nd to 28th of 1898.

Unit issue isn't in the book. It's too big even thus.

[Rick the Librarian]

So some National Guard units received the Krag BEFORE the Spanish-American War? I was doing some research on a M1903 owned by a prominent Montana pioneer and I found that the Montana NG didn't receive Krags until after the war. I believe this was true for the Washington [State] NG, as well.

[jon_norstog]

Why skip the 7th Cavalry?

The first 3 volunteer cavalry regiments had Krags as did the Ohio volunteer cavalry (trivia question: what state was the President from?).

http://www.spanamwar.com/Southdakotacav.htm



3rd vol cav dude. Krag carbine.

The 7th spent the war posted on the Mexican border. They did go to Cuba in '99 as part of the occupation. And they were in the Philippines from 1904 to '07 - got a Presidential Unit Citation for action on Luzon. They may have had Krags on their first tour there.

The US Volunteers, the 1st of course every one knows about. The Nevada Unit - 2nd U.S. Volunteers split up. The favored few went as far as Georgia, whikle the left-behinds were sent to the Philippines and actually saw action. The Third U.S. Volunteer Cav got as far as Camp Thomas and mustered out in the fall of '98. Presumably they all turned in their carbines.

McKinley's brother was the go-to guy if you wanted an Army contract during the war. He set up the deals that provided the troops with leaky ships, rancid beef, wormy biscuits and itchy wool uniforms.

I hadn't known that so many state units got Krags. Most of them were in the occupation, I think. The state units that saw combat, all the ones I've been able to read about anyway, went into action with trapdoors..

I've been thinking about taking a trip to Cuba and see the fighting ground myself. Or what's left of it.

jn

[5MadFarmers]

So some National Guard units received the Krag BEFORE the Spanish-American War? I was doing some research on a M1903 owned by a prominent Montana pioneer and I found that the Montana NG didn't receive Krags until after the war. I believe this was true for the Washington [State] NG, as well.

No, as State units (they weren't legally "National Guard" until 1916 - yes I know that term was used before that but it was legal as of 1916) they didn't. When called to federal service they did. Hence the late 1898 date - they were in federal service with the 7th Corps. When replaced by "U.S. Volunteer Regiments" they reverted to State control and the Krags were turned in.

They also weren't legally "State Militia called to Federal Service" either. Militia couldn't serve overseas in 1898. They were "permitted" to not be in the Militia when they "volunteered" for federal service.

Laws are strange things - especially when lip service is paid to them.

Trivia question: how many National Guard units served in WW1?

None.

[5MadFarmers]

The 7th spent the war posted on the Mexican border.

Forwarded to other units then? 7th Cavalry officers were at both Santiago and other battles and were given brevet promotions for their actions there. I'm aware that regulars were released from their units, promoted to higher "volunteer" ranks, and serviced as the command structure in those units. That's not what I'm going on about as the promotions aren't for the volunteer units - they're listed as 7th Cavalry.


I've been thinking about taking a trip to Cuba and see the fighting ground myself. Or what's left of it.

jn

Going to wait for the bearded one to expire first?

[jon_norstog]

I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder if the Army had any idea exactly how many troops they had in Cuba, and where they were, let alone how to provision them.

[Kragrifle]

Ohio

[dave]

I own carbine 77733, went to the Phillipines with the 1st. Cav.

[Rick the Librarian]

I realize the legal backing changed in the 1900-1916-era. There was the Dick Act of 1903, as well.

As far "units" it depends how you define them. If you go by divisional units, the usual "book" is all divisions between the 26th (New England) and the 42nd (Rainbow Division, made up of many state units) were of National Guard origin. I am not aware of any other divisional units of National Guard that didn't make it overseas. You may have information. Also, there may have been smaller units called up, as well.

[Maury Krupp]

It depends on how you define "units" and also how you define "National Guard" or "militia."

I believe Mr Farmers is hinting at the semi-legal fiction that occured when the state units were "inducted" into federal service. The most obvious result being all the units lost their state identities (eg, the 69th New York Volunteer Infantry became the 165th [United States] Infantry).

Presto! What had been a state militia (ie, National Guard) unit, under the control of the state governor and constitutionally prohibited from serving overseas, was now a federal unit capable of being sent anywhere for anything at the whim of the federal government.

Lineage and PR aside there's a pretty compelling argument that today's National Guard is not the militia referred to in the Constitution. It's a pure federal reserve military force. That's why the tag over the left pocket says "U.S. Army" or "U.S. Air Force" not "[state name] National Guard" or anything else associated with the state.

Maury

[Fred]

The 26th U.S. Volunteer Infantry was issued 1898 Krag rifles in July of 1899 before being shipped out to the Philipine's. Somewhere around here I still have a photocopy of the original handwritten list by rifle serial number and also rifle shipping crate that was made by a Captain of that unit. It was sent to me by Frank Mallory upon submitting the serial number of a Krag rifle that I used to have that'd been one of those issued to that unit. Frank also sent me a photocopy of the 26th's Unit Log that was updated every week while that unit was in the Philipine's. Those rifles used by the 26th U.S. Volunteer Infantry have shown up as I've seen several being sold that went unnoticed on Gun broker or other sites over the years.

[Dick Hosmer]

As a counterpoint, at least one troop of the 6th US Cav, took around 70 Model 1896 carbines (refurbed at St. Louis in the summer of 1900) to Peking.

[Rick the Librarian]

The 26th U.S. Volunteer Infantry was issued 1898 Krag rifles in July of 1899 before being shipped out to the Philipine's. Somewhere around here I still have a photocopy of the original handwritten list by rifle serial number and also rifle shipping crate that was made by a Captain of that unit. It was sent to me by Frank Mallory upon submitting the serial number of a Krag rifle that I used to have that'd been one of those issued to that unit. Frank also sent me a photocopy of the 26th's Unit Log that was updated every week while that unit was in the Philipine's. Those rifles used by the 26th U.S. Volunteer Infantry have shown up as I've seen several being sold that went unnoticed on Gun broker or other sites over the years.

I realize several Volunteer units received Krags on the way to the Philippines or while there. The thing that interested me about 5MF's list was that several state units received Krags well before the Spanish-American War.

[5MadFarmers]

The 1916 National Defense Act changed the relationship of the Army and the newly designated National Guard.

In 1917, using the powers from that act, the National Guard was activated, called to federal service, discharged, and drafted in one fell swoop. The new federally assigned division designations were used but, outside of regulars, all other troops were draftees. Played holy heck after the war as the National Guard commitment was gone - they'd been discharged.

No National Guard troops served overseas - there weren't any. They'd been discharged and drafted.

[5MadFarmers]

I realize several Volunteer units received Krags on the way to the Philippines or while there. The thing that interested me about 5MF's list was that several state units received Krags well before the Spanish-American War.

Where did you get that? The units I listed received the guns in November of 1898. I included the date. They surveyed the Militia arms in 1898. Black troops in Georgia still had muskets. The cavalry in one of the north western states was still entirely armed with Spencers. Which means they'd been better armed than the regular army for 30 years. :)

The Ordnance Department charged the States new prices for rebuilt arms. Using federal money. The amount was fixed and, due to the prices, it was never enough. Some States chipped in and bought newer guns. Illinois bought .50/70s off the surplus market as they were cheaper. The Ordnance Department was at war with the Army. The Army was at war with the militia. No units had Krags. Perish the thought.

The United States Army. Should have been abolished in 1815.

[Rick the Librarian]

Where did you get that? The units I listed received the guns in November of 1898. I included the date. They surveyed the Militia arms in 1898. Black troops in Georgia still had muskets. The cavalry in one of the north western states was still entirely armed with Spencers. Which means they'd been better armed than the regular army for 30 years. :)


1st TX: 1896
4th IL: '98.
2nd SC: '96
1st NC: '98.
161st IN: '98.
49th IA: '96.
2nd LA: '98
3rd NE: '96.
9th IL: '98.
2nd IL: '98.
4th VA: '98.
6th MO: '98.

[5MadFarmers]

1st TX: 1896
4th IL: '98.
2nd SC: '96
1st NC: '98.
161st IN: '98.
49th IA: '96.
2nd LA: '98
3rd NE: '96.
9th IL: '98.
2nd IL: '98.
4th VA: '98.
6th MO: '98.

Aw, I get it. 2nd SC, Model 1896.

[Rick the Librarian]

That does make it a TAD clearer! :D

[jon_norstog]

That's one of the things that interest me about Krag rifles. They were adopted as part of the big change - America went from being one kind of country to being another kind altogether, and the shift took place really fast. Not all the changes were for the better IMHO.

Hitchcock used to talk about "the MacGuffin" - an object that doesn't do anything on its own but the real story revolves around it. The Maltese Falcon statue is an example. In some ways, the Krag is the macGuffin in a very big story that has not yet completely played out. Not to say they are not interesting, useful and accurate in and of themselves.

jn

jn