Struggling with off-hand hold position

[Roadkingtrax]

What have others found to be the most stable hold (non-shooting hand) for an M1 or 1903 rifle in off hand for themselves.

I've tried a few variations, resting on a relaxed fist, resting on thumb and index finger. It would seem I'm holding too long if its causing me trouble.

[Maury Krupp]

CMP has some good stuff on basic position building here http://www.odcmp.com/Training/CoachingResources.htm

Your non-firing hand position is going to depend mainly on your body shape and target height. What works for a person with short arms or big hands isn't going to work for someone at the other end of the scale. You really have to try each one to see which works best for you.

You should be able to build a relaxed, stable position that allows you to hold the rifle up in the general direction of the target for relatively long periods (eg, waiting for a lull in the wind). If you can't do this try some dryfire holding drills. They build strength, stamina and muscle memory. One common drill is to bring the rifle up, hold for one minute, bring the rifle down, rest for one minute, lather-rinse-repeat. A beeping kitchen timer works well for this cycle.

Everybody's got a wobble area; I don't know anyone who can just sit in the 10-ring Standing. The idea is to get it as small as possible for long enough to break the shot.

Maury

[George in NH]

I would offer this, while hand position is one thing, what contact, if any, is being made by that portion of the arm at the elbow and above to the body? Also, a very firm grip on the pistol grip with the "gun hand" while pulling firmly into the pocket of the shoulder should improve your position. Another area of concern in OH is to always bring the sight to the eye. Avoid lowering the head to acquire a sight picture. Contact on the face is determined by the cheek bone or the fleshy part of the cheek. Start with the best textbook OH position you can take and then adapt that to your body size and style. Don't forget the "natural point of aim" otherwise known as "natural body alignment". A good way to start is to always "build" the position from the ground up.
HTH George in NH

[Allen Humphrey]

I think that Maury is right about your body type (and rifle type) somewhat driving the best hand position. I have short T-Rex arms and use the thumb and first two fingers on a Springfield, a fist for a Garand, and the reverse hand grip for an AR. I use a high elbow for any 30 cal with the butt actually in the shoulder pocket and a firm grip on the trigger hand. The biggest two factors for me are 1) natural point of aim. and 2) if I don't break the shot in the first 5 seconds of taking up the first stage...I might as well start over 'cause it isn't getting any better from there.

[Art]

One other thing that doesn't have to do directly with hold. When you take that breath, let out half of it and hold you should try to get the shot off within ten seconds. This has to do with more than fatigue, after that the lack of new oxygen to the brain starts to affect vision. If you don't have a "bang" in 10 seconds try a re set.

[Litt'le Lee]

I believe that working out with your rifle to build muscle memory is the only way to achieve results--It was taught to me in 1958 at boot camp-especially if you are older

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Air rifle in the garage/basement is so much more fun than dry fire, it's a great way to really improve. I work at home and usually fling a few pellets at lunch.

[Roadkingtrax]

I forgot about my question asked here. All good advice, and will use everyone's recommendations to my benefit. Just building consistency in natural point of aim, with what hold allows for best sight picture. I've also got some better glasses coming my way, as wearing my normal specs has been a large distraction.

I just need to find out if Maury will do some private lessons in Tucson for me. :)

[pmclaine]

Roadkingtrax where is your support hand when you are holding?

Give the average guy a rifle and ask him to shoot offhand the support hand is up past the center of the rifle. That kind of pulls your upper arm away from your body eliminating the support your torso can provide.

I usually held my support hand somewhere on the mag plate of my 03. A Master had me bring my hand back to the trigger guard/pistol grip (C stock). The lines of the 1903 are so well formed that there is no weight at the front of the rifle and I can hold the rifle like I'm shooting a shoulder stocked Broomhandle Mauser. This keeps my upper arm in full contact with my Torso and my support arm isnt out in space canterlevered out away from my body.

For the Garand I think my hold is more over the trigger guard to account for a slightly heavier front end.

I let my front sight dance a figure eight pattern and try to concentrate on just the slow, steady, SQUEEZE of the trigger.

This and double hearing protection ensures I am about as mediocre a shooter that I can be so take the advice for what its worth.

[Roadkingtrax]

Roadkingtrax where is your support hand when you are holding?

Give the average guy a rifle and ask him to shoot offhand the support hand is up past the center of the rifle. That kind of pulls your upper arm away from your body eliminating the support your torso can provide.

I usually held my support hand somewhere on the mag plate of my 03. A Master had me bring my hand back to the trigger guard/pistol grip (C stock). The lines of the 1903 are so well formed that there is no weight at the front of the rifle and I can hold the rifle like I'm shooting a shoulder stocked Broomhandle Mauser. This keeps my upper arm in full contact with my Torso and my support arm isnt out in space canterlevered out away from my body.

For the Garand I think my hold is more over the trigger guard to account for a slightly heavier front end.

I let my front sight dance a figure eight pattern and try to concentrate on just the slow, steady, SQUEEZE of the trigger.

This and double hearing protection ensures I am about as mediocre a shooter that I can be so take the advice for what its worth.

I've tried some exercises with the C-Stock, and for my ergonomics...the rifle doesn't balance as well. Are you using your palm to accomplish this position? Also, do you use a heavily padded glove?

It's been so hot...I need to get out to the range before work. Finally starting to cool down here in the Phoenix valley.

[pmclaine]

Without going down to get the rifle I cant really explain my hold. Its something I do, not something I talk about. Kind of like being unable to remember a Masterlock combination unless you have the lock in your hand.

My trigger hand (right) holds the C-stock as per usual. The left hand has the trigger guard in my palm as well it cups my trigger hand. Its just a really "in tight" position with as much of my arms as possible tight to my torso to gain whatever support can be had. My right arm does not chicken wing out to the side, its in as tight to my body as muscle, fat and man boobs will allow.

I usually have my glove on but its less important in off hand as compared to those positions where I have the sling in place and Im looking for protection from getting my hand pinched by the sling. My glove is not heavily padded. I bought it at Creedmore I think they call it the NRA fingerless glove.

[Roadkingtrax]

Without going down to get the rifle I cant really explain my hold. Its something I do, not something I talk about. Kind of like being unable to remember a Masterlock combination unless you have the lock in your hand.

My trigger hand (right) holds the C-stock as per usual. The left hand has the trigger guard in my palm as well it cups my trigger hand. Its just a really "in tight" position with as much of my arms as possible tight to my torso to gain whatever support can be had. My right arm does not chicken wing out to the side, its in as tight to my body as muscle, fat and man boobs will allow.

I usually have my glove on but its less important in off hand as compared to those positions where I have the sling in place and Im looking for protection from getting my hand pinched by the sling. My glove is not heavily padded. I bought it at Creedmore I think they call it the NRA fingerless glove.

I can visualize what you're talking about...

Easier to do, then to describe.

[pmclaine]

I can visualize what you're talking about...

Easier to do, then to describe.

If you were visualizing I apologize for the man boobs descriptor. Go wash your eyes and try to get the image out.

[Roadkingtrax]

If you were visualizing I apologize for the man boobs descriptor. Go wash your eyes and try to get the image out.

I stand in judgement of no man's physical advantages. :icon_lol:

[pmclaine]

I stand in judgement of no man's physical advantages. :icon_lol:

....a Phil Mickelson fan?

[Roadkingtrax]

....a Phil Mickelson fan?

I had to do a google search, and now I see the joke. Know OF him, but don't watch enough golf...or check them out. :)


I've never been a little guy, except for the 10 years I had to stay in good shape for the military. I knew I was getting old when I was grunting to jump on an F-16 wing tank to get on top to de-panel it. Supposed to use a ladder though.

[Johnny in Texas]

Finding your natural point of aim is very helpful. move your feet until your rifle points at the target left - right then the only work you have to do is hold elevation find the most comfortable hold to get a natural small wobble area. Do this every time you address the target. It takes a few minutes to do this.

[Griff Murphey]

Lots of good advice has been given here only one point I can think of to add and that is that in shooting a major part of it is mental discipline. I quit shooting from the late 80's to about 2000 and I lost a lot of my mental conditioning as far as I could not get back into my zone where I fired almost mechanically and started getting wobbly knees like a beginner. Dry firing or as the marines say, snapping-in helps but there is no substitute for firing matches. If you can't find matches try to simulate them by firing with others, amaze the benchresters who can't even think of shooting from anything other than a dead rest.

The other thing is that my back has gotten to the point that I can't take a hardback coat anymore.

One last point, even if you make a bad shot, never give up. If you have to bring the gun down bad try again; you have a minute a shot. I was shooting in the Texas State HP matches in 1972, sighters 10s, first shot for record a 6! I went the next 19 all in the 10 and x ring, shot a 196 which back then was a great score and set a record in Texas. Cain't do it like that no more.

First shot for record, 1975 3rd Mar Div intramural R&P matches was a 5v center bull on the next door neighbor target! I won that one, too. NEVER GIVE UP!

[Greg Ficklin]

So much of what makes someone a successful offhand shooter is confidence, and subconsciously following of a shot process that took years to perfect for that individual. That is why it is so hard to tell someone how to be better. It is so internalized and personal. The very best advice I can give you is to hold the rifle.... a lot. Work out a shot process by copying the movements of an accomplished offhand shooter from the time he picks the rifle up from the stool, loads, fires, and returns it to the stool. Every movement has a purpose that builds consistency to the point that the shooter no longer thinks about any of them. The key is to find comfort, with comfort you will build steadiness. Trying this or that change should first and foremost be a quest for comfort and not a noticeable improvement in steadiness of hold. A good offhand hold is nothing more than the ability to stand still with the weight of the rifle. Believe me this is much easier said than done, but you will get there with a lot of holding without the added complication of working the trigger. Getting the gun to fire is a whole new process that involves the mind that can separate the the two concepts of sight alignment and trigger control into conscious and subconscious actions. When conscious effort is dedicated to sight alignment and not "when to fire", the shooter merely becomes an observer of sight location on the target when the rifle eventually fires. The subconscious mind is tasked with trigger control with very slow increases in pressure to the trigger based on acceptable sight alignment. Pressure only resumes when the sight alignment is acceptable. For the new shooter this is anywhere near his ideal sight picture. This is a critical skill that has to be learned in order to accurately call your shots. Dry firing if not done with this concept will result in a conscious decision to fire "now" pushing the shot out the door and disturbing the sight alignment. The shooter would never do this in the most stable position of prone, or even from a bench, but they think they can get away with it in the most unstable position of standing. The shooter is certain that it was in the 10 ring but it isn't. It is a 7 or worse. They don't understand what happened. All of the dry firing in the basement with good shot after good shot doesn't repeat itself on match day. When the concept of interrupted trigger control is burned into the subconscious mind with detailed and precise movements of a thoroughly comfortable and repeatable shot process you are well on your way to loving the standing slow fire stage. You will be able to confidently observe and call 10's around the clock and when it is an 8. I'd like to say that I never shoot 8's anymore, but I do. But I know them when they go, and what I did wrong. The ever increasing standard never stops. New shooters like 9's, but I hate them, and 8's are rare but they still get in there.

[jpretle]

Adapt the 'by the book', position to your body configuration. Everyone is different. Practice, practice, practice makes for muscle memory which lets you acquire your NPA quickly, so you can get the shot off w/o getting fatigued. You most likely will not acquire a perfectly still position, but you may get to the point where you cannot see the motion. Once there, you may experience wonderment, in terms of 'why won't the shot go off', or why didn't I shoot?
The off hand position doesn't get better than that, if you are on target when it happens. Muscle memory is what gets you to that point, so again, it is practice, practice, practice.
Now, get 'em centered.