Krags still in use in 1908 - Montana National Guard

[Rick the Librarian]

The subject comes up, occasionally, about when the M1903 replaced the Krag in National Guard service. I read one account where the author said it was done by the end of 1907. As some of you may remember, I did a magazine article a few years back about a M1903 that had belonged to a prominent Montana mining engineer, which he apparently had obtained in 1908. I wanted to try to figure out how he had obtained it relatively early in the M1903's service life. One of the possibilities I investigated was that he had gotten it from the National Guard.

I was unable to find a specific "switchover" date, but I did find some pictures taken of the MNG during maneuvers conducted during the summer of 1908 with other National Guard units of the Pacific Northwest near American Lake, in W. Washington (not too far from present-day Fort Lewis). Both of the pictures appear to show that the Montana units were still equipped with Krags. I saw another "far away" picture (which I do not have possession) of another unidentified unit during these same maneuvers which appeared to show the unit carrying M1903s.

Anyway, below are low-resolution copies of the pictures:

http://www.fototime.com/54C39108D3C1A74/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/0EEFA127F9725E7/standard.jpg

(As an aside, relating to a previous discussion of the Springfield Research Service, the M1903 I was researching, SA #78180, was listed by the SRS as having been used by the 10th Cavalry in the early 1920s; since this rifle was owned by the engineer since 1908, I informed the SRS that the rifle they listed was undoubtedly a Rock Island of the same serial number. I offered to show them my research, so they could make a correction, but they weren't interested.)

[Dick Hosmer]

Would that have been Frank, or Wayne?

I had a similar gripe, and it was with Frank - our only disagreement. He would NOT change the 800,000 reference(s) which were obviously wrong.

[Rick the Librarian]

It was Wayne - Frank had passed away by that time. It was pretty brief and to the point - they weren't interested. I feel Frank would have at least discussed it with me. As I said, I had the research.

[PhillipM]

Would that have been Frank, or Wayne?

I had a similar gripe, and it was with Frank - our only disagreement. He would NOT change the 800,000 reference(s) which were obviously wrong.

What is the correct number then?

[jon_norstog]

Thanks for posting this, Rick. Those Krags probably helped keep the Butte miners in line.

jn

[Dick Hosmer]

What is the correct number then?

I have no knowledge as to the veracity of any of the remaining digits, but the first HAVE to be mis-read "3"s.

[Rick the Librarian]

The serial number of the M1903 I did the research (and magazine article) on was Springfield M1903 #78180:

78180 031223TRP C 10TH CAV

[coastie]

Krags in the service.....
Some WW1 units trained with them.
Some were reportedly in England for WW1.
The expeditionary forces we sent to Eastern and European Russia for post WW1
occupation had Krags. [check that, will you?]
A recent auction catalog had a Krag "carbine that was out of whack as a carbine,
probably a good gunsmith's work, but it had a history.
Sent to England for WW2 duty, and returned!
Had documentation.
Ahh, history.
Writtened by the survivors, isn't it?
Thanks, Paul

[Tuna]

If I remember right the troops that were sent to eastern Russia during the civil war to support the White Russians were armed with 91 Mosin's as it would make the ammo supply a bit easier. I think they brought them with them and when they left Russia they left the rifle there.

[Rick the Librarian]

You might be thinking of the 339th Infantry Regiment, sent to the Archangel area (E. of Finland). They were armed with Mosins; those American troops sent to Siberia were equipped with M1903s.

[Col. Colt]

I have read somewhere that US WWI units, a few early on, anyway, arrived in England with Krags. That may have helped convince us and the British to re-equip our arriving troops with British weapons, which was done for a time, as the Brits and French wanted to use our guys as "fill ins" for their units. General Pershing put a stop to that idea! Someone will have an accurate citation shortly, I'm sure. CC

[Kragrifle]

There is an excellent book out covering US made rifles in service in foreign countries. Is has the best detailed coverage of the use of the Nagants by US troops in Russia. Not at home now, but will list title later.

[John Sukey]

There was a photo of engineers arriving in England in WW1 to set up camps for the infantry arriving later. If you didn't know the date, you would swear it was 1898 as all their equipment and uniforms was Span Am war

[Kragrifle]

The book I mentioned is Allied Rifle Contracts in America by Luke Mercaldo published in 2011. Buy the book while you can find a copy.

[Shooter5]

It appears some things never change: National Guard units often have odds and ends hanging around longer than planned. As late as mid-OIF some NG units here and there had M16A2s (and A1s) and in yet another bizarre occurrence, M1911A1s!?! This, even though the A2s were widely replaced by the M4.

[jon_norstog]

I have read somewhere that US WWI units, a few early on, anyway, arrived in England with Krags. That may have helped convince us and the British to re-equip our arriving troops with British weapons, which was done for a time, as the Brits and French wanted to use our guys as "fill ins" for their units. General Pershing put a stop to that idea! Someone will have an accurate citation shortly, I'm sure. CC


A good example was the 369th Infantry, formerly the 15th NY. AKA the Harlem Hellfighters. They were attached to the French Army and easily outran their French flanking units in the Meuse-Argonne fight. They were issued French helmets and probably a bunch of other kit as well. I don't know if they carried US or French arms.

The 369th was fmous for its regimental band, led by James Reece Europe, one of the pioneers of jazz.

jn

[Rick the Librarian]

They carried French rifles. They said the one thing they DID like (it certainly wasn't the French rifles!) was the tot of wine they got every day! :D

[jon_norstog]

Rick, & krag shooters,

I think I'm gonna post a little bit about James Reese Europeand the 369th over in the Gun Talk forum. Maybe tomorrow. I'm scuffling toget ready for this year's elk hunt.

jn