Worst day ever at the range

[M1Riflenut]

So I finally got out to try my 1873 trapdoor rifle I got a few years back. Bore looked nice, I slugged it and discovered otherwise. Did a major cleaning using copper pot scrubbers, bronze wool then bronze wool with JB paste. Eventully I got it cleaned, bore still looked great and got slugs that looked and measured good. I loaded some rounds, first time for me doing BP rounds. I used 65 gr of Goex FFg with Lyman 385 gr flat base bullets I got locally, lubed with SPG and a .030 wad under the bullet. As I was only testing, I only made up ten of these rounds, then I made another 10 the same way except used pyro RS instead of the Goex. All rounds fired fine, mild recoil, no leading issues. Swabbed the bore every two rds with TC bore cleaner(milk looking stuff). At 100 yds I got only 4 hits on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, and only one on the paper. MAJOR key holing, I mean exactly sideways when they hit. I first tried rounds just shooting into the berm to see where they went and they are all over, up high, down low, left right etc. Moved to 50 yds and shot at a 4x8 sheet and did'nt get one hit out of four on the sheet. This damn thing would'nt hit the side of a barn if I were standing directly in front of it. I don't know what to do next. I cleaned it and slugged the bore again, it looks good, the muzzle looks good, no dings or deformity. Could my loads be causing this? I've never had a gun shoot this bad before and I've worked with some real problem guns but this is my first venture into BP loading. I shoot muzzle loader and all sorts of metallic smokeless etc, have been reloading metallic for 30+ years. I'm having a hard time thinking that something this extreme could be the rounds only. I can live with it not being that accurate but the key holing has got to go. Any suggestions?

To make my day even worse, I had also brought along an old 1930's vintage Marlin 30/30 that was given to me. It did'nt fire at all! Barely dings the primers. The firing pin appears fine, the gun is nice and not worn out and was cleaned thoroughly. Another rainy day project to look into...

[JimF]

Dave . . . .

I bet "dollars to donuts" that your bullets are TOO SMALL!

You say you slugged the bore . . . But didn't state the groove dia.

Bet a .460/61 dia. Bullet would hit "point on"! --Jim

[M1Riflenut]

Thanks Jim, I think you are correct. I used 50 cal lead balls to slug the barrel. I found it hard to get a good measurement though with the 3 groove rifling. Best I could do that kept coming out the same was .4575. The bullets I bought are Lyman #457124, sized to .458 with SPG lube. I don't cast so my only option was what the LGS's have and they all say the same on size at .458. They were out of stock on the 405 gr so I got the 385 instead. I just tried slugging the bore using one of these bullets, plenty of resistance and it shows all sharp rifling on all 3 grooves but not very high at all, not as much as the 50 cal slugs I pushed through it. The lands (lower part of the slug) are distinct and shiney but I notice there does'nt look like any scuffing on the grooves (high spot on the slug) that shows it was touching the barrel metal. It looks like they are about .001 undersized, maybe more? Any idea who sells larger dia bullets? If I can get some, does the powder charge seem ok for the weight I used? What BP charge do you folks recommend for the 405 and 500 gr bullets? Seems like some of the reading I'm finding on it shows 65 gr but with that amount and the 385 bullets I used, I still had quite a lot of compression, about a 1/4", and I used a 36" drop tube. I would think it would be a lot more with heavier bullets. I'm only interested in BP loads at this time, not smokeless. I miss that smell and smoke from my old muzzle loader days!
Thank for all input and tips!

[Dick Hosmer]

Also, what is your alloy? Bullets need to be soft, anywhere from 1-16 to 1-30. I'd guess you're getting virtually no spin at all. Gun should shoot well under 6" at 100 yds.

[p246]

I cast soft 505 grain bullets at. 459. I also bought Missouri Bullet company 405 grainers sized to. 458. My trappdoor shoots both well and holds them in 4 inch groups. I've been doing a lot of experimenting over a chrono. I'm drilling primer pocket flashholes with # 41 drill bit. Using magnum CCI primers. 41 grains Pyrodex RS is timed to sight dead on at 100 yards and runs about 1130 fp with 500 grainers. 45 grains pyrodex pushes same bullets a little over 1200 fps. Both loads litely compressed with.30 shotcard and spg lube. Got to get my data book to see what 405 grainers were running.

[M1Riflenut]

Also, what is your alloy? Bullets need to be soft, anywhere from 1-16 to 1-30. I'd guess you're getting virtually no spin at all. Gun should shoot well under 6" at 100 yds.
The box is not labeled as to alloy but a sign on the stand at the shop says "1/20 alloy cast bullets". These are all set in a different spot than the rest of the reloading stuff and copper and hard cast bullets, clerk says they are for the old guns only. They are made in VT, has the makers info and phone number on the box. I may call and see if they can do a different size. I've had zero luck so far finding a place that sells anything other than 458 size. A couple makers on Midway's site show some at .459 but I don't know if that will work or should I try and get .460?

[p246]

Alright 405 grainers with 45 grains pyrodex running average of 1350 . I also tried 55 grains pyrodex with them and average was 1420. My guess is like the others your bullet is to small. And to hard to expand against rifling at ignition. If you can't find any let me know I'll send you 10 of my 405 grainers to try.

[M1Riflenut]

What about the 405 gr hollow base? If I can get those in .459 do you think that would work? If I understand it correctly, I would NOT use a wad/ card under these as the base needs to expand, is that correct? If so that may help along with the .001 larger size.

[p246]

M1 if I fire up the furnace in a couple weeks I can send you 10 505 grainers at .459 if you want to try that. If you need. 460 you need to find a buddy that casts or get a little pot and mold. Its hard to find makers that make em bigger than. 459.

[p246]

What about the 405 gr hollow base? If I can get those in .459 do you think that would work? If I understand it correctly, I would NOT use a wad/ card under these as the base needs to expand, is that correct? If so that may help along with the .001 larger size.
I have never used hollow base bullets but friend with rolling block had to use them because it would not shoot anything else he tried. It would be worth a try.

[M1Riflenut]

Alright 405 grainers with 45 grains pyrodex running average of 1350 . I also tried 55 grains pyrodex with them and average was 1420. My guess is like the others your bullet is to small. And to hard to expand against rifling at ignition. If you can't find any let me know I'll send you 10 of my 405 grainers to try.

Thank you for the info and offer. I think the local shop had the 405 gr hollow base but was out of stock. They don't sell much of this stuff so they probably don't re-order often. I know there was a spot on the rack that said 45-70 405 gr hollow base, but it was empty and I don't know what size those would be.
Your charge is much lower than what I used. Am I overcharging with 65 gr BP or are you talking about actual weight of the RS pyro? I don't know what the weight of the pyro was I used as I just put one of the weighed BP charges into my adjustable measure, set it to be level and then used that for the pyro RS. I've always known RS to be the equivalent by volume, not weight. Both loads seemed about the same for recoil. Don't have a chrono so no idea whats going on there.

[p246]

Pyrodex RS should be decreased by 10 to 15% if by weight. Max load for Pyrodex RS would be around 60 grains if using the 15% formula. My old time mentor was the one that told me to drill out the flashole with 41 bit and use magnum primers to get better ignition with BP. Make sure to never load cases with smokeless after that. When I played with both I got 100 fps faster with his flash hole and mag primer over stock hole and standard primer. I wanted to time a load to be on with sight at 100 yards hence the lower loading. With your loads if shooting right will be 8 to 10 inches high but would be real close to being on at 200.

[mannparks]

M1,here is a store bought bullet source.
http://www.buffaloarms.com
As you well know the variables are many.
Go slow ,be safe read a lot it will come.
Charles

[sdkrag]

22 years ago I started this same odyssey when my new father-in-law brought me his new trapdoor that was doing the same thing M1Riglenut's rifle is doing. Since then we have successfully fired literally thousands of rounds through numerous rifles with great success. We ended up forming a shooting/re-enacting club and our members cornered the market on trapdoors in the Dakota's for a few years. The question was how did the govt. inexpensively and efficiently make these rifles shoot accurately? They didn't spend money on wads or patches.

p246 is using much of what we discovered though ours and others research. Components were different in the 1880s. We found drilling out primer holes and using magnum primers was helpful (Spencer Wolf's book should be credited). In addition soft hollow based bullets with the ability to expand to fit the bore were essential. SPG is an excellent lube. I have also used bees wax/olive oil combo as lube. My father-in-law actually visited Spencer Wolf at his home/shop and learned a lot of what he put in his book in person. Spence designed the Lee 405 hollow base bullet that closely duplicates the original govt. bullet. The 500 grain bullet (Rapine made a good mold) also originally had a slight hollow base. (I have originals). We use FFG powder or Pyrodex. I use 55 - 60 grains just because after 100-150 rounds in an hour it doesn't beat you up as bad.

I won't state that smokeless powder and jacketed bullets will not work. But I believe you need a very good example trapdoor to be successful with those components without a lot of work. Marginal bores and oversize bores can be made to shoot relatively accurately using hollow based soft bullets. My goal was to replicate the govt. issued ammo when I started. Why re-invent the wheel? For 10 years we had an average of 20 riflemen at our range every month successfully firing rifles using these loads (1000-2000 rounds). Most of the guys are shooting cowboy action these days. I still shoot the trapdoor or my 50-70 rolling block at re-enacting events. Have not had a tumbler in 20 years.

[M1Riflenut]

Thanks guys for the tips and encouragement. I'll pick up different bullets and try again, heck I might even get into casting myself. Once I get this thing working, I have a few 1863 muskets I'd like to try as well, although only one of those has bore that's "half decent". I've thought about having one of them relined to use as a shooter, but that's a whole different topic for another day.

[M1Riflenut]

M1,here is a store bought bullet source.
http://www.buffaloarms.com
As you well know the variables are many.
Go slow ,be safe read a lot it will come.
Charles
Awesome website Charles, thank you. I just placed an order for bullets and a few other items. I could spend a boatload on that site! They had a .460" 405 gr hollow base listed so I ordered a box of those to try. I went back to my LGS today and got a box of .459" 405gr flatbase, they do not have a hollowbase listed as I thought.
I'll give it another go in a few days!

[Mark Daiute]

Go to castboolits.com and start hanging out there. You'll learn a lot and there's a bullet exchange there.

[M1Riflenut]

Go to castboolits.com and start hanging out there. You'll learn a lot and there's a bullet exchange there.

Thanks Mark. Got new bullets to try but too busy this weekend to get back out. Maybe next weekend. Got a new granddaugther this weekend instead!