View Full Version : So, what grade of Sand Paper should I use to remove the patina on this old stock?
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Allen Humphrey
10-13-2013, 07:29
Better start with a wire wheel first.
Wow that is a beauty
Yea, aint it though? Aside from possibly using a little oil and some #0000 Bronze Wool to lightly clean the bolt handle, I can't think of a thing to improve it.
Just in case some don't know what type of 03 this is, it's a 1920 National Match rifle. I'm told that there were 3,000 of them made.
:icon_salut:Fred, What you need is a belt sander with say...60 grit. Nail the thing to the floor and go after it.
Seriously though, I think you have two choices, neither includes sandpaper. One would be to use a stripper like Klean Strip which would remove all the finish and some of the stain. It's pretty simple, spay it on, let it sit and scrub it down with a nylon brush and hot water. Believe it or not, most of the color we all like comes from the BLO and how it reacts to the natural oils and the wood itself over time. Throw in the cosmoline, grease and anything else they got on them and it makes for some rode hard, put away wet look. I have done the strip down and went back with cold pressed linseed oil and the color came right back. Darkens over time, but not all that much. I did a lot of research on linseed oil and found that the artist community had some of the same issues we have....they wanted to avoid the yellowing.
There are many kinds and treatments they have done to linseed oil and out of them all, cold filtered meets our needs best. Somewhere along the line, they found out there is an enzyme action that plays out in all this and cold filtered is one of the few that doesn't destroy that. Boiling actually does to a big extent and although it still occurs, it takes a very, very long time...like 60 years? Hmmm, how old are these guns?
The other thing you can do is put some warm linseed oil on it and try to soften that glaze, sometimes it works, often times not. You'd want to scrub that with a stiff nylon brush if you attempt it.
Don't use sandpaper of any grit.....
Kurt
Thanks Kurt. However I was just Kidding about cleaning this rifle. It appears to be a virtual Virgin and has all original finish on both wood and metal. The wood still has its original textured grain. If I were to remove any of the original finish, Patina, etc. from this rifle, I'd burn in Hell. Needless to say I won't in all seriousness be destroying the value of this 1920 National Match rifle. LOL.
Better use an angle grinder if you want to remove all of the patina, just to be certain. :evil6:
Where did you find it? Please tell.
John Beard
10-13-2013, 09:44
I would suggest using $100 bills. By the time you got done, that's how much value you would have lost!
Just kidding!
J.B. :hello:
Better use an angle grinder if you want to remove all of the patina, just to be certain. :evil6:
Where did you find it? Please tell.
Jeff, my wife bought it for me. Aint she somethin? They just aren't making gals or rifles like that anymore! I saw it on GunBroker and John Beard was kind enough to allow me first chance at it! What a gentleman, eh? Thanks John!:1948:
I'm not sure that I ought to even turn a single screw on it. Looking at the photo's (it hasn't arrived yet), except for possibly the stacking swivel screw, the screw heads and slots appear to have never been marred by a tool. I wonder if it's possible that the rifle was bought almost 94 years ago and was then just put away? I guess that's possible. Anyway, apparently no one has abused it over the past century. Maybe someone who never used it passed away and the rifle went to their child who didn't have an interest in firearms and the thing just continued to sit in a closet or gun cabinet, out of sight and out of mind until recently being discovered once more. Maybe one of the grand kids took it down to a gun shop and sold it. The gentleman who was selling it on Gun Broker didn't know that it was a National Match rifle, least of all a 1920 National Match rifle. I suppose that until John Beard publishes a book on 1903's, many of the 1903 enthusiasts will continue to allow such treasures to slip by unnoticed. John filled me in on what it was as well as a few other things about it. The man knows a thing or two about the subject.
I would suggest using $100 bills. By the time you got done, that's how much value you would have lost!
Just kidding!
J.B. :hello:
That's a pretty accurate assessment John. I'd rather chew my own right arm off than mar, molest or desecrate this rifle. As a matter of fact, I'd prefer not to ever take a steel screw driver blade to any of the screws. I'm sure that somewhere, someone must make a Bronze bladed, hollow ground screw driver blade that can also be easily contoured to the concave shape of the trigger guard screw slots etc. That is if there is ever a need to remove the barreled action from the stock. Like maybe if there was a flood and the rifle became soaked. Glad that we live up on top of a Very high hill above the river valley. I'm anxious to see what the bore looks like. When the rifle arrives, I'll take some pictures of it's full length profile and post them here if anyone would care to see them.
Fred
it probably has a mixture/combination of just about everything one could think of, a commercial paint remover and scrub brush would take a lot off, however!
I have had tremendous luck and been happy with a product used in the Marine Industry to remove stains from teak decks it is a powder dissolved in water and you scrub the wood
'OXY-DECK' It is a produce made by olympic it also gets into the dings and dents and removes all the crud from them also, i was amazed at the first one i worked on, it was a 1921 03 S stock i put two gallons of water in a bucket and followed instructions and the crud and crap just came off like nothing i ever saw before, the water turned crap brown and frothy brown and the wood was completely free of any finish/oil of any kind, let it dry slowly in my utility room and put it on the rifle and did a very very light coat of linseed oil and rubbed it in and it looks like it was just issued
great stuff
Hi Pelago! Say, I was just Joking about removing the original finish and patina from the stock on this rifle. There's nothing wrong with it now and the rifle is worth substantially more as a collectable with it than if it were to be removed. It's the original finish that was put on the stock and it's just darkened with age. This is highly desirable on all historical firearms. This finish on the wood indicates that the rifle has never been worked over and as you can see, all of the edges are extremely sharp and defined. Any cleaning of the rifle, except for gently wiping it down with a clean cloth, would compromise its value by stripping it of the original and well preserved surface, wearing down the wood grain and destroying the integrity of the rifle forever. Original finishes are too often removed by well intentioned but misinformed people who are trying to improve the looks of a firearm. You cannot fix something that isn't broken. Thanks for the good information on wood finishes though! LOL
Fred
DON'T LISTEN TO THESE GUYS!!!! That rifle looks beyond hope. You MIGHT be able to salvage it by spray painting the wood brown and the metal black.
Yeah, hopeless. Better ship it to me for de-milling.
Nice acquisition.
OK ebeeby, it'll be on the way.
Duane Hansen
10-14-2013, 07:20
Fred, Not knowing you, like some of the others here, I thought at first you may be serious about your intentions. I just about dropped a load when I read your first post. So glad that you were not serious. What a beauty!
Hang it on your fire place spit, turn it slow until it gets that well done crusty look. That will give it the character of a well used WW1 rifle used in the trenches. After that is done you sit down and put on paper a really nice BS story to talk about with the stupid and gullible. Something like it's Sgt. York's long lost Enfield rifle.
I was just being onery Duane. Actually, I hadn't expected any actual advice in answer to my facitious question. It's kinda scary that I did. OMG ... :eek:
However, that's why we communicate through this forum. To learn from each other and share ideas. I'm glad that I had a chance to iron out the issue of when not to refinish something. Maybe somewhere down the line, it'll save a highly collectible firearm from being ruined.
Anyway, I'm glad that some of you guys like the rifle. Perhaps the reason it sat so long without any interest was because its type isn't widely known yet. Maybe that's a good thing. This time I was able to run across it while searching for unmolested 03's and I received some help in identifying it for what it was. Heck, Flayderman's doesn't even cover the 1919 or the 1920 National Match rifle's yet. I hope that if anyone comes across others in similar condition or otherwise, they'll not try to do a Bubba on it. Im convinced that scenario is a distinct possibility. :eusa_wall:
I wanted to share the photos of it as I saw them on GunBroker. It's amazing to me that in 94 years, the rifle has somehow been used very little if at all and has escaped damage. In a way, I bought it to insure that it stays that way for sometime longer. The rifle needs to be in the care of someone who appreciates and marvels at its clean and unspoiled features. Thus, the point of my apparently not so obvious jest. Sigh...
The sheen on that rifle is what you get with many, many years of appling linseed oil, and handling the rifle.
CptEnglehorn
10-16-2013, 04:03
Thats a beautiful rifle, perfect candidate to be welded up into a drill rifle and chrome plated for parade use, then give it to an ROTC Unit to smash the stock to bits so they can get a plastic replacement.
Hi Pelago! Say, I was just Joking about removing the original finish and patina from the stock on this rifle. There's nothing wrong with it now and the rifle is worth substantially more as a collectable with it than if it were to be removed. It's the original finish that was put on the stock and it's just darkened with age. This is highly desirable on all historical firearms. This finish on the wood indicates that the rifle has never been worked over and as you can see, all of the edges are extremely sharp and defined. Any cleaning of the rifle, except for gently wiping it down with a clean cloth, would compromise its value by stripping it of the original and well preserved surface, wearing down the wood grain and destroying the integrity of the rifle forever. Original finishes are too often removed by well intentioned but misinformed people who are trying to improve the looks of a firearm. You cannot fix something that isn't broken. Thanks for the good information on wood finishes though! LOL
Fred
probably true, however you might want to see if you can remove some of the imbedded dirt and that can be done simply by 1/2 linseed oil and 1/2 mineral spirits and a good NON METALLIC SCRUB brush, i have taken many many stocks that were so dark that they were black but other than that looked clean as far as the dinks went, scrubbing with this mixture loosens up top layer and you can remove the dirt that is also in that layer, and the result is somewhat brighter with the rich luster of the walnut coming thru again, and the mineral spirit combo linseed oil does nothing detrimental at all
nice rifle
Hello Fred, I am a long time lurker and first time poster on the 1903 forum as I follow the garand forum. I would do what most garand experts do and remove that old natural patina and finish and apply a coat of BLO and Tung oil to really make the grain stand out. Notice the outstanding finish I applied to the 03's below. I got the mixture from an expert online who said he had tried it once before and I think he was spot on. When I bought these 2 rifles, like you I bought them off of the web from a lady who had just been divorced. I thought the top rifle was cool because it has some kind of sporter stock on it. During the sanding process I left her husbands initials on it because I thought it was kind of clever how she had it stamped AAX to remind her of her "X". His name was Allen Ashford. I was really disappointed in the second lower rifle because I wanted a rifle like my dad and grandpa carried in WWII and WWI. Unfortunately it must have been a practice or training rifle because it was made by Remington and I assume all the pieces were too because they have an R or some little numbers, etc.. geez I wanted springfield like my dad's and SGT York carried (I read it on the internet). The finish on it looked like your rifle but it was in better condition because it did not have that little chip by the butt plate ( I think you should apply wood filler). Once I sanded off the, ( I guess her other boyfriends initials ,RLB?), and the red painted stripe that some knucklehead painted on it and applied that mix that I found on the internet it looks like a champ. I removed the sights so I can put on a scope or peep sight like my garand... I'll tap it first with my dremel tool to see what I like better. If you go ahead and take some of the advice I've read earlier in the post/thread, I think you can really make the wood grain pop and stand out like it should. If not, I would follow that JB fellow's advice and use 100 dollars bills, because we all know that when it comes to getting a deal, Dead President's talk. I understand, to make my effort really stand out on the forum, I should have used an afghan like that retired librarian uses, but it is starting to get cold up here and my wife wouldn't give hers up. Oh one last question, if I put a scope on it vice the peep sight would it still be considered a national match? Good luck with your refinishing and restoration project. I look forward to seeing the finished product. I bet you can't wait to get a couple hundred rounds of ammo thru it. I've got a bunch of old ammo from the 1900's through WWII that I found laying around my dad's house that I'll send you if finding ammo is tough wherever you live. Most of them still go bang and few of them catch fire and burn all the way to the target. It really helps when sighting them in.. or during deer season... if not send it to that guy in Denver if he didn't get flooded out.. he seams (sp?) to work on rifles if you can't get it to shoot straight.. I may send him my bolt to work on, if my propane torch does not get hot enough if I decide to go with the scope on..
Regards,
CC03
unemployed and out of work worker, Department of Redundancy Department
disclaimer, at no time were said rifles damaged during the process. Each rifle was received in the condition as seen (at reasonable prices) .. some/most grammatical and spelling errors intentional... oh; Fred, outstanding rifle.. thanks for sharing it!
LOLOL! Thanks Colonel, I really enjoyed your post! :icon_lol: You've a fantastic and dry sense of humor, like mine. I salute you sir! :icon_salut:
Thats a beautiful rifle, perfect candidate to be welded up into a drill rifle and chrome plated for parade use, then give it to an ROTC Unit to smash the stock to bits so they can get a plastic replacement.
Yes, yes! I quite agree! :icon_lol:
I've just found out from the seller that the rifle had been brought into his gun store recently by a frequent customer of his. The customer told him that he'd received the rifle from a relative about 40 years ago. That's all that I know of it. No names were asked for and none given as yet. I'm hesitant to even bring it up any further with the seller until he receives his Bank Check and I have the rifle in my hands. As yet, the seller, good man that he is, doesn't know that the rifle is anything more than, as he calls it, "a Mint Condition 1903". I'll have it soon and will photograph it well from all of the important angles to post.
I wonder if the "relative" from whom the owner received the rifle was a competitor at Camp Perry or if he was just a fellow who bought the rifle because he liked it? Anyway, I'll have it soon and will be it's curator and owner for awhile yet until I probably give it away along with my other 03's to someone who deserves to be their next owner sometime far down the road. Nobody in my family has the slightest interest or knowledge in firearms, least of all in collectable 1903 Springfield's. But, except for my wife and two children, they're all democrats. So they'd never receive anything from me anyway.
Fred that is really a beautiful rifle, I might be wrong, but from the photos, it looks like a 30's style handguard it's wearing. If so, it must have been an advantage in sighting to put a later one on it. Ray
Hi Ray! Actually, i believe that style of hand guard seems to have come out in 1919. Two original Mark I rifles I've seen with 1-19 barrels (mine is one of them) still have the High Hump hand guard. So the change over seems to have occurred after that.
I believe my 1920 National Match rifle with a 11-19 barrel date is all original. Maybe Rick Slater or John Beard could verify or negate that.
You're probably right Fred. I'm away from my books and was only going by what my old mind thought it remembered about the dates of those later pattern hand guards. Ray
Hi Ray! Actually, i believe that style of hand guard seems to have come out in 1919. Two original Mark I rifles I've seen with 1-19 barrels (mine is one of them) still have the High Hump hand guard. So the change over seems to have occurred after that.
I believe my 1920 National Match rifle is all original. Maybe Rick Slater or John Beard could verify or negate that.
My 1921 (not too many numbers higher than your 1920) rifle does not have the "high hump". It probably was profiled like yours but has been altered for Winchester A5 scope bases and mounts.
Here are photo's of two other 1920 National Match rifle's that recently sold. As you can see, one of them has a similar hand guard and the other has a concave hand guard. It's a mystery to me as to what was going on at Springfield Armory at that time.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM32_zpsb6b62dbc.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM32_zpsb6b62dbc.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM33_zps76159798.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM33_zps76159798.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM31_zpsf91a9832.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM31_zpsf91a9832.jpg.html)
Then the other rifle
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM35_zps8fce94e4.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM35_zps8fce94e4.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM30_zps4f9846cc.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM30_zps4f9846cc.jpg.html)
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c72/Whitedog333/NM34_zpsea73dbc2.jpg (http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Whitedog333/media/NM34_zpsea73dbc2.jpg.html)
Here is a link to another 1920 national Match rifle that was discussed this past March on another forum. As you can see, the hand guard is just like the one on my "soon to arrive" rifle.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=43094
And yet one more 1920 National Match Springfield that was up for auction two years ago at Rock Island Auction Company. The hand guard seems something in between the straight contour and the concave (high hump) contour. You'll have to click on the two tiny images at the top of the information.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/54/lid/3699
That RI auction one does say the hand guard is a post WWI handguard in the description so they must have started using them just post WWI and as my memory has now been jump started, I remember reading a post by RTL stating that the low profile handguards were changed to in the early 20's as yours is. I think I got mixed up in that the later National Match low profile handguards were stamped with a part number in the 30's as were the C stock's at that time. Ray
Ya know, a lot of folks think that what is called a High Hump hand guard actually has a higher profile than other hand guards. They are the same however. The difference is just in the shape of the wood's contour between the barrel band and the sight groove. The "high Hump" hand guard, having a concave shape, has less wood and was more prone to breaking and cracking along there. That's why the decision was made to adopt the thicker hand guard with the straighter and even the convex upper edge. It was just an improved design. It really didn't offer a better sight picture.
Doug Douglass
10-19-2013, 01:02
Personally I lean toward a good solid chrome finish, very durable.................
Very nice rifle, the one I shoot is a 1921, #1196714, which was re-barreled last with a 1928 star guaged and with a high hump handguard. Looking at the wear on the safety it has had a lot of trigger time.
I'd like to see some pictures of your rifle Doug!
Doug Douglass
10-20-2013, 07:01
I'd like to see some pictures of your rifle Doug!
Never got around to figuring out pictures. When I do I will include photos of my 1919 NM with "0" wear that I traded a water heater for years ago.
John Hancock
10-21-2013, 11:35
These things are showing up everywhere. Here is a 1920 NM that sold on gunbroker a few weeks ago. It was listed as a regular 1903. I hung in for a little while but it went for more than I could afford. Someone got a great deal on it.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=365821828
They Stole it at that price. Whoever it was certainly had their whit's about them to have noticed it when they did. I guess it's all about timing! The one that my loving Wife insisted on buying for me as a birthday gift (Aint she somethin?) was also listed as a regular 1903. I just kind of Forest Gump'd my way into it with the assistance of a knowledgeable collector who verified what it was for me upon an inquiry. Here is the link to That auction that I (she) won.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=370126909
John Beard
10-21-2013, 04:48
Hi Ray! Actually, i believe that style of hand guard seems to have come out in 1919. Two original Mark I rifles I've seen with 1-19 barrels (mine is one of them) still have the High Hump hand guard. So the change over seems to have occurred after that.
I believe my 1920 National Match rifle with a 11-19 barrel date is all original. Maybe Rick Slater or John Beard could verify or negate that.
The high hump handguard was phased out in 1920 and replaced with a straight-profile handguard. A rifle from that period could correctly have either handguard. To be correct, however, an early straight-profile handguard from that period must have a fixturing slot inside the barrel channel, which was a carryover from the high hump handguard. The fixturing slot was eliminated a year or two later.
Hope this helps. Congratulations, Fred!
J.B.
mdshunter
10-21-2013, 04:53
Please tell me you were just pulling everybody's leg right? Although, I have heard and seen such things. I ask in seriousness only because I have seen it done!
I didn't know that about the fixturing slot John. Thanks! I'll have a look at mine when It arrives by (hopefully) Monday.
Thanks also for the congratulations on getting the rifle! I couldn't have gotten it though unless you'd allowed me to go for it first. Thank YOU again! :banana100:
Please tell me you were just pulling everybody's leg right? Although, I have heard and seen such things. I ask in seriousness only because I have seen it done!
Sorry mdshunter, I've already power sanded the stock down to clean wood and have shellacked it from stem to stern. I cut off about 2 1/2" of muzzle too and mounted a brass shotgun sight. Hooweee! It's a good looking deer rifle now!
Of Course I was just kidding! If you go back and read my subsequent posts, you'll see that. :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol: :evil6:
mdshunter
10-21-2013, 05:59
Skipped a bunch in between! I figured you were jesting but as I said I have seen it done! I had to ask! Bubba and his cousins are everywhere it seems. What a beautiful piece. I wish i could fall into one like that. Thankfully it went to someone who knew what they were doing! nice pick up. I am currently restoring one 1903, 2 Garands, an m1 carbine, and a couple Arisakas that Bubba and his ilk got ahold of somewhere in the past. I am also working a deal on a 1941 Johson that was "restored" by Bubba about 20 years ago. Sad really sad. I honestly dont know if it will be worth the cost and effort required at this point. The rape and pillage I see done to perfectly innocent antique weapons is astounding. One just has to wonder.
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you! It's fun though isn't it!? Well I guess part of what makes the firearms so valuable today is because of the high attrition over the years.
Rick the Librarian
10-23-2013, 07:21
Mdhunter, it all depends when the "pillaging" was being done. In the 1950s through early 1970s, milsurps were extremely common and relatively cheap. They were not seen as "collectibles" and were, in effect, "work guns". While I still shudder over some of the "modifying" that was done in those days, I understand it.
I read a gun magazine about 10 years ago that suggested the best ways to sporterize military rifles. Now THAT was a stupid article!! I wonder how many milsurp owners took the author's suggestion!
The rifle is supposed to arrive tomorrow. If it does, I'll start a new thread and post some photo's of it.
F.G.
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