WW2 Winchester M12 Riot Shotgun on Gunbroker

[1stRaider]

WW2 Wincheser M12 Riot shotgun on Gunbroker
Have bid on this shotgun as I've always wanted a nice WW2 shotgun. However the more I look at it the more I wonder of the originality. The metal appears mint and the blued finish looks factory from the photos just based on the quality of the finish, although I realize it's just a photo. In his description he seems convinced it's right on but was thinking of asking a few questions about it before increasing my bid. My main concern is the lack of stock cartouches. Was wondering what the experts think about this?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=369639111


Thanks!

[James B.]

Not an expert by any means but the stock is incorrect without the cartouches. Also the "US" and bomb in pic 3 look thin like they have been buffed or polished indicating a re-blue.
JB

[scosgt]

I am pretty certain it has been reblued. If there is a bomb on the barrel, I can not see it. I do see a prick punch mark, which indicates rebuild. However, there should also be a similar punch mark on the receiver. If there was a bomb on the barrel, it has been almost buffed out.

You also need to see the "thumb print" near the ejection port. It disappears when refinished.

My best guess is that the receiver was recovered off a trenchgun (way more common than riot guns) and mated with a salvaged barrel.

Of course, the stock is not correct without the markings, and plain stocks are pretty easy to find. This stock is not original finish, and the usual reason is that the stock needs to be fitted to the receiver or it really won't look right. The original finish, other than REALLY late guns (which riot guns are NOT, they are early) is varnish, not oil.

[Ironlip]

Dittoing everything above. The lack of stock cartouches kills it as authentic. Another thing about the riot guns is I've never even seen a riot gun that looked that good. Trench guns yes. I've got one and seen plenty of others. But all of the riot guns I've seen with cartouches appear to have been issued and show significant signs of use. Maybe that's because, as scosgt noted, they were produced earlier. As a result maybe they were more likely to be put into service. The late trench guns had a better chance of either never being issued or not seeing significant use.

[scosgt]

According to our research, they originally made M12 riots and M97 trench guns. At some point, they decided to standardize on the M12 trench and discontinued the M97 and the M12 riots.
Original M12 riot guns are always in the earlier serial range, and with a WB cartouche.
Since they were early war (or even pre-war) issue, they were almost certainly issued and used.
I have had one or two with the original varnish on the stock, but they are almost always pretty beat up.
A really nice original M12 riot is extremely hard to find, and will command a good price.
Same with the M97 riots BTW, original correct guns in any kind of condition are very very hard to find.