Reloads

[carbineone1964]

Going to make up some reloads for my Model 1884 45 70 Trapdoor. It is in great Mechanical shape so that will not be a issue.

I have a pound or so of IMR 3031 here. I am reloading them using a Lee Classic Hand loader. I have plain lead, 400 grain, flat nose bullets to use. They have a crimp groove..

The dipper that came with the kit is the 3.4 CC and that equates to 44.6 Grains of 3031 according to Lees specs...According to them that would put velocity around 1569. But they do not list a barrel length in those calculations. Mine is a Standard rifle. Not a Carbine.

I believe that is too much for a original Trapdoor. I called Hodgdon and they said they would suggest 40 grains. I am thinking closer to maybe 35 to 38 grains.

One other question. Is it necessary to use a filler with the lighter smokeless loads? I use fillers with my older Black Powder stuff with real black, but am unsure if they are needed for smokeless apps

I know the dipper may not be ideal, but if they did not work or were terribly inaccurate and killed people daily, I assume they would not be making them anymore, as the Lawsuits would abound.


Well any input from the experts would be great..Thanks

[older than dirt]

No filler needed with SMOKELESS powder.

[Dick Hosmer]

Not in the sense that a filler (or rather no void) is required with BP, but I thought that sometimes with light charges of certain smokeless powders in a big case, that ignition was improved - and better accuracy was obtained - by using an inert filler to keep the powder against the primer?

[Dollar Bill]

I don't have my manuals handy but any 400 / 405 gr bullet load listed for Trapdoor Springfield with a listed velocity over 1300 FPS or so raises a flag in my mind. I think you are right in questioning their load recommendation. Your suggested range of 35 to 38 grains is the way to go. Try 10 of each and see what gives decent accuracy. Good luck!

[carbineone1964]

I even looked on Hodgdons website myself. And they list 45.5 grains of IMR3031 in the Trapdoor section at around 1537 FPS.

Something seems screwy here. I surely would not think they would list excessive loads on the Hodgdon website..That would seem crazy, especially when dealing with a Antique type Firearm that is over a 100 years old..

However they do claim only a 17,300 CUP, with that powder load. Which sure seems well within a safe margin for the Trapdoor..

[broom jockey]

That Hodgdon's load could be for a modern 45-70? Altho messy, I always load black powder.

[carbineone1964]

No it is for a listed load for a trapdoor. I even talked to a guy at Hodgdon personally..

Black is very hard to get around here. Ordering online is ridiculous with the minimums and the outrageous shipping charges.

I have a couple pounds of Geox, but it is reserved for my Harpers Ferry Musket. Flintlocks are pretty much required to use Black Powder for ignition reasons.. Thanks

[older than dirt]

I`m using 34g Reloder "7" behind a Rem 405g 458 dia JSPFN bullet & pushing around 1500 fps. Been doing it for over 3 years & no problems.

[carbineone1964]

Loaded up 5 with 36 grains. Shot them off a rest at 100 yards. Very hard to see those dang Trapdoor sights with may aging eyes. I think considering my ailing eyesight. The fact that they were shot rather hastily from a crappy rest and was my first attempt at 100 yards. Other times I shot it was just functional checks at a close range.

I think it did pretty good. Right at a 4 to 5 inch group. I know I can do better taking my time and such. It was rather brisk out and I hate cold..

I was really even glad I hit the paper at all. That was a big concern to start with. All the holes are perfectly round. So definitely no tumblers.

So at 100 yards what is a good group size in your opinions? It was pretty cool, hearing that big thump come back at you from the plywood... Thanks

[p246]

My 1884 runs 4 inch groups on average with non paper patched 500 grain softies pushed with Pyrodex.

[Dick Hosmer]

Under the conditions and circumstances described (all that was lacking were charging Indians!) a 5" group is quite commendable. Given a more favorable ambiance, one might hope to someday reach 3"

[carbineone1964]

Thanks. Atleast I am not horrible. That was a 5 shot group by the way.. I have a 1879 Buckhorn type sight on my 84'

When the sight is all the way down. It is really, really hard to see. I have not shot to 200 yards yet. But the sight does look a little easier to see at the higher settings.. I have glasses, but it is very hard to get a focus and see everything.

What I need is a peep aperture of some kind. I am thinking on a way to do something like that to the rear sight that would not be a permanent modification..Maybe make a aperature to screw in place on the Buckhorn sight with the two little existing screw holes. Or a tang sight of some kind. Some say the Buffingtons are better, but I actually find this 1879 is better for me..

[Lee T.]

I also find the trapdoor sights hard to get a decent and stable sight picture. I usually use just my elbow on the bench while sitting which helps absorb the recoil. Maybe it's the way I'm used to shouldering other rifles, both my trapdoor rifles and one carbine just feel a lot different. With sandbags it's very hard to get low enough on the stock to even align the sights much less get a good sight picture. I prefer 50 yds because bad knees keep my target setting at the shorter distance, and I aim 8-10" low to get on the paper. I don't load this ctg, and at $1.50 a shot I doubt I'll ever shoot them enough to get very comfortable or consistent. But the whomp and thud of these things is so different and fun, who cares about being good?

[carbineone1964]

Yes they are expensive rounds. I think I have it figured out at 42 cents a round reloading them. Though I will not shoot 1000s of rounds a year. It is nice to go out and Plink off 20 reloads or so for around 8.00, rather than 35.00 or 40.00 for a Factory box of 20..

It does seem like it is going to be a fun Rifle to shoot.. Most times I will not even be shooting from a bench rest. I only do that kind of shooting when I am zeroing in a scope or setting up some sights..Or want to see what a Firearms potential is after removing some of my Human error..

[SgtSki]

I use 12.2gr of trailboss behind the lee 405 hollow bullet without a wad sized to 457 starline brass, and Federal 215 Large rifle magnum primers.
Link to result is at
http://www.njacc.info/images/2013/MemorialDay/MD-8.jpg
Could do better but that takes more practice and a new eyeglass prescription!

[13Echo]

The sights are tough, with the 1884 peep being the best but still tough for older eyes. I have a set of glasses that are ground to get a sharp front sight focus with the target in relatively good focus. It makes it possible to shoot the old timers with some expectation of accuracy. I still have a hard time with the ridiculously small notch and narrow front blade on my 1898 Krag and an even worse time on the 1868 Springfield rear v notch. It helps to blacken the blade and notch with soot and occasionally I'll paint the rear or front white (depends on the target color) to get some contrast in the notch. Seems to help.

I can't help with whitepowder loads as all I shoot are loaded with the holy black.

Jerry Liles

[carbineone1964]

I have one I shoot and the sights work very well for me on it, even with my bad eyes. My 1816 Harpers Ferry. The sights are very easy to use or I should say sight. They only have a front one:D

Very simple concept..

I did hit a 2 x2 foot board with the Old Gal at 100 yards one day just for a giggle..

I did put a little white paint on the front sight of the Trapdoor. It helped a little but not alot..


I may try some Black once. I looked at using trailboss. But isnt that a real slow burning powder? Thanks

[SgtSki]

I was using a model 1884 with a buffington rear sight. The range was 100 yds. Point of aim was center visible mass using a fine sight picture with the front sight all the way down in the rear sight and off the white (as good as I could estimate 8 inches) of the target. So it was the equivalent of a head shot at 100yds with the point of aim the heart.
Add to that it shoots about 6 inches to the right so the hold off was to the left. Some I guessed good some not as good. Any way it was fun.

http://www.njacc.info/images/2013/MemorialDay/MD-8.jpghttp://www.njacc.info/images/2013/MemorialDay/MD-8.jpg

[11mm]

The sights are tough, with the 1884 peep being the best but still tough for older eyes. I have a set of glasses that are ground to get a sharp front sight focus with the target in relatively good focus. It makes it possible to shoot the old timers with some expectation of accuracy. I still have a hard time with the ridiculously small notch and narrow front blade on my 1898 Krag and an even worse time on the 1868 Springfield rear v notch. It helps to blacken the blade and notch with soot and occasionally I'll paint the rear or front white (depends on the target color) to get some contrast in the notch. Seems to help.

I can't help with whitepowder loads as all I shoot are loaded with the holy black.



Jerry Liles

I have surrendered on both the 1884 (Buffington) and the Krag (1901 sight) and have machined tall front sight blades (.055) replacing the GI blades. It sure does increase the satisfaction in shooting these rifles, and it is not a permanent alteration. The original blades go in the butt for future generations to restore, if they like. Neither of my rifles are highly collectible, but the shoot well...better than I do.

[Devil Dog]

I'm surprised no one has brought up "barrel leading" with cast lead bullets. I would stay BELOW 1,000 fps to avoid leading. I use 20 gr of 2400 when using cast lead bullets.
1,562 fps is way to fast for a cast lead bullet.

[13Echo]

Leading in the Trapdoor occurs with using too small diameter bullet that does not fit the barrel and/or too hard an alloy that won't allow the bullet to "bump up" or conform to the barrel. If the bullet doesn't fit then gas blow by will cause cutting of the base of the bullet and deposit lead in the bore. If the bullet fits and has a decent lube you will not get leading to any significant degree at 1200fps or even more. This generally means in these rifles a soft alloy (typically 30:1 to 16:1 lead to tin) cast at 0.460 or more diameter with enough powder charge to cause the bullet to "bump up" and fill the bore.

Jerry Liles

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm surprised no one has brought up "barrel leading" with cast lead bullets. I would stay BELOW 1,000 fps to avoid leading. I use 20 gr of 2400 when using cast lead bullets.
1,562 fps is way to fast for a cast lead bullet.

While 1500+ might be a tad hot unless everything (bullet to bore size, lube, etc.) was spot on, you need to remember that issue ammo ran between 1150-1350 depending on the loading, this taken from data on the original packaging, so the "below 1000" comment seems incorrect. Have you measured your bore size, and what alloy are you using?

And, as to 1562 being "way too fast for a cast lead bullet", there are records of people being quite successful with (admittedly very hard, and with gas-checks) cast bullets in the .30-'06, up into the low 2000s, and that's in a 1-10" twist (the .45-70 is 1-22") so I do not believe that velocity alone is the issue, at all.

[carbineone1964]

I have some lead bullets that are 2/6/92 They seem to shoot pretty well in my Trapdoor. What the heck is that makeup? Is that a soft cast bullet? Hard? Maybe they are too hard? I think they are 2% tin 6% antimony and 92 % lead..

I do not want to be using something that may damage the barrel..

Thanks very much..

[Dale in Louisiana]

I have a couple of these old things. They're a hoot to load for and to shoot. I cast up my own bullets, naturally. The gun just begs for big soft-cast bullets.

Here's a great source for info: Loading Cartridges for Original 45-70 Springfield (http://4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm) Most of the data in this book is oriented towards replicating the original black powder loads. The author recommends soft bullets. The original arsenal loads called out a 20:1 lead-tin alloy, with NO antimony. Part of the magic of the soft bullet and the black powder was that the pressure curve was fast and the 'kick' would expand the soft bullet to fill the grooves better.

Past that point, you can find loads for dozens of powders that will push a bullet out of a trapdoor safely and with accuracy.

Cast bullets from a couple of hundred grains to over five hundred will work, and velocities can range from a few hundred FPS to over eleven or twelve hundred. At the velocities you'd expect to push things out of a trapdoor, gas checks aren't needed. The limiting factor, safety-wise, is the fact that this old action should be limited to low-pressure loads.

The groove diameter of barrels can be greater than .460. Many factory lead bullets are .458, and that leads to leading problems.

dale in Louisiana

[coonhound]

I use 48 Gr. of Varget behind 500 Gr. Gov't bullet (Round Nose) and 1 gr. of cotton on top of powder. Works great and I can keep 1 to 1.5 inch groups from a rest

[coonhound]

Oops - correction. Make that thirty-eight (NOT 48!!!) Grains of Varget!!

[carbineone1964]

1 to 1.5 groups at what range? If that is 100 yards. That is pretty amazing shooting..

[John Sukey]

you fo;ls might want to keep in mind that there are two DIFFERENT loadings for the 45-70 round
One for the trapdoor, and one for the Winchester lever action

[Dale in Louisiana]

you fo;ls might want to keep in mind that there are two DIFFERENT loadings for the 45-70 round
One for the trapdoor, and one for the Winchester lever action

Make that THREE. Trapdoor and old rifles. Modern lever actions. Ruger #1's

You can load the daylights out of a Ruger and it will hold together. Don't ask me how I know, but God looks out for some of us.

dale in Louisiana